I didn’t participate in the sub much but I did appreciate having a that view come in my feed here and there. And without having to invade a women’s space.
I had the same question opening this thread so I googled it.
the interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender as they apply to a given individual or group, regarded as creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage.
What this means in this context is considering the viewpoints coming from many different groups–people of different races, religions, disabilities, neurodivergence, etc., so issues that affect men with disabilities, for example, are as important as issues that affect men without disabilities. They don’t get ignored or sidelined in favor of more mainstream conversations.
It seems like it just ends up killing a group’s momentum though. Instead of finding the common problems that affect everyone in the larger group me, you spend time talking about all the small issues that only effect some people in the group and then nothing gets done about the issues that actually affect a superlative or majority of the group.
As someone with a learning disability, a history of trauma, neurodivergence, and is part of a racial minority, I really don’t give a fuck if the majority are kept quiet for five minutes lol
Seems weird to me that you think helping marginalized people wouldn’t help everybody. That’s the whole point, finding solutions to problems that work for everyone, not just those in the middle of the bell curve.
Helping everyone helps everyone. Helping just some people helps just some people. And it divides your group inter ever smaller segments, diminishing your power.
Nobody is just one thing. Intersectionality is about finding common ground where everyone feels like an island. Discussing the small stuff doesn’t prevent anyone from talking about the big stuff.
Case in point, being a man with a part time, invisible disability, there is a cultural expectation that I will lift heavy things, engage in sports, or give up my seat to a woman or elder. And I do these things, sometimes with great physical pain, because it’s easier than explaining to people why everything hurts without sounding like a whiny malcontent.
My experience is not universal, but many men can relate to the societal pressures to conform to what a “man” is supposed to be. Sharing my experience might help another person recognize their own biases and expectations, and to empathize with people who might exist in another space.
That is a good way to go about intersectionality, but this other comment from another Lemmy user is how I’ve always seen it go:
As someone with a learning disability, a history of trauma, neurodivergence, and is part of a racial minority, I really don’t give a fuck if the majority are kept quiet for five minutes lol
I like the idea behind the community but it is a terrible name. Without reading an explanation, most people would assume it was some toxic, misogynistic group. I only know what it refers to because I bothered reading some of the comments here.
I’m sure there are much better names, such as Positive Masculinity for example.
I like the idea behind the community but it is a terrible name.
The men’s liberation movement is a concept going back 50+ years. It would be difficult to change that at this point.
Also r/MensLib is a large, well-known sub with a well-defined remit. If you are going to start something similar on here it would be confusing not to go with a similar name. However, because of its scope, from what I saw, it tended to be a bit alienating to those who didn’t toe the party line.
So there is room for a community focused on a broader, looser discussion of the topic (although it’d need strict moderating), like:
I’m sure there are much better names, such as Positive Masculinity for example.
Healthy Masculinity? It seems to be the more accepted term, although they can be used interchangeably.
Also positive masculinity tends to still be rooted in fairly patriarchal ideas of what it means to be a man in ways that liberation from gender roles specifically is not.
I like the concept of being able to talk openly about mens’ issues. That liberation name is unfortunate; in my opinion, it definitely sounds at least apologetic towards misogyny. What do we have to be liberated from?
Sure, but if you have to spend this much time explaining what you mean, it seems counterproductive. And it’s going to attract the toxic personalities and opinions that we’re supposed to be liberating from.
Women’s liberation is not some esoteric piece of history. It’s in living memory for a lot of people and was a household term for decades. For those unfamiliar, I think it’s worth asking why that may be.
Right, but Women’s Liberation from what? A patriarchal society that oppressed and exploited women. Men’s Liberation is not at all the same. I agree with the mission statement, but women were second class citizens, denied education, denied positions of power, denied basic human rights and civic decency.
Men don’t require that level of liberation. Casting off societal pressures and expectations, living free of gender-based norms or requirements, and discussing how those pressures affect your life, those are noble pursuits and I’m here for it. I support that. I’m on your side.
I’m just saying that the comparison doesn’t highlight the things you want to highlight. The implication is that the struggle is the same, that the severity is equivalent, and in the worst case, the roles are reversed. Misogynistic morons will try to co-opt the name to say that men need liberation from women, and that’s just an absurd fantasy held by an alarming number of neckbearded alpha bros. It implies you support the patriarchy. I know you don’t. But I didn’t know that from the community name, I learned that by reading the explanation.
Consider that patriarchy hurts men too. There’s a lot of pressure to be a certain way in order to “be a man”, no crying or expressing emotions beyond anger or happiness, gotta be tough, that sort of thing. We can and should liberate ourselves from those toxic expectations
Edit: i’m sure someone else might be able to word it better, that’s just off the top of my head/how i interpret it
The name isn’t new, it comes from the same place as women’s lib, afaik the concept of Mens Lib has been around since the 70s. We all want to be free of harmful and unnecessary gender stereotypes. r/menslib was a great subreddit.
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I see one post that is 3 hours old and all the rest are over 6 months old. Any idea why?
Just a fairly inactive community. Was hoping to breathe a little life into it with this post.
I didn’t participate in the sub much but I did appreciate having a that view come in my feed here and there. And without having to invade a women’s space.
What’s intersectionailty?
I had the same question opening this thread so I googled it.
What this means in this context is considering the viewpoints coming from many different groups–people of different races, religions, disabilities, neurodivergence, etc., so issues that affect men with disabilities, for example, are as important as issues that affect men without disabilities. They don’t get ignored or sidelined in favor of more mainstream conversations.
It seems like it just ends up killing a group’s momentum though. Instead of finding the common problems that affect everyone in the larger group me, you spend time talking about all the small issues that only effect some people in the group and then nothing gets done about the issues that actually affect a superlative or majority of the group.
As someone with a learning disability, a history of trauma, neurodivergence, and is part of a racial minority, I really don’t give a fuck if the majority are kept quiet for five minutes lol
That’s the problem. You want to keep the majority quiet instead of finding common ground that will help everyone in the greater group.
Seems weird to me that you think helping marginalized people wouldn’t help everybody. That’s the whole point, finding solutions to problems that work for everyone, not just those in the middle of the bell curve.
Helping everyone helps everyone. Helping just some people helps just some people. And it divides your group inter ever smaller segments, diminishing your power.
Nobody is just one thing. Intersectionality is about finding common ground where everyone feels like an island. Discussing the small stuff doesn’t prevent anyone from talking about the big stuff.
Case in point, being a man with a part time, invisible disability, there is a cultural expectation that I will lift heavy things, engage in sports, or give up my seat to a woman or elder. And I do these things, sometimes with great physical pain, because it’s easier than explaining to people why everything hurts without sounding like a whiny malcontent.
My experience is not universal, but many men can relate to the societal pressures to conform to what a “man” is supposed to be. Sharing my experience might help another person recognize their own biases and expectations, and to empathize with people who might exist in another space.
That is a good way to go about intersectionality, but this other comment from another Lemmy user is how I’ve always seen it go:
I can assure you that progress has not been stopped by the advent of intersectionality. See fourth wave feminism
deleted by creator
This was a good sub, glad to see it here
I like the idea behind the community but it is a terrible name. Without reading an explanation, most people would assume it was some toxic, misogynistic group. I only know what it refers to because I bothered reading some of the comments here.
I’m sure there are much better names, such as Positive Masculinity for example.
Make it happen! Not a man but would love to see it out there
You’re right about the assumption… … But the assumptions are also part of the problem.
Women’s liberation doesn’t get a second glance at is name, so why can’t a men’s liberation discussion group enjoy the same?
The men’s liberation movement is a concept going back 50+ years. It would be difficult to change that at this point.
Also r/MensLib is a large, well-known sub with a well-defined remit. If you are going to start something similar on here it would be confusing not to go with a similar name. However, because of its scope, from what I saw, it tended to be a bit alienating to those who didn’t toe the party line.
So there is room for a community focused on a broader, looser discussion of the topic (although it’d need strict moderating), like:
Healthy Masculinity? It seems to be the more accepted term, although they can be used interchangeably.
Well, you’re right, that was my initial assumption upon immediately seeing the name. It also aroused enough of my curiosity to check further though.
Also positive masculinity tends to still be rooted in fairly patriarchal ideas of what it means to be a man in ways that liberation from gender roles specifically is not.
I like the concept of being able to talk openly about mens’ issues. That liberation name is unfortunate; in my opinion, it definitely sounds at least apologetic towards misogyny. What do we have to be liberated from?
It’s a reference to the women’s lib movement. It’s about liberation from patriarchy and traditional gender roles.
See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_liberation_movement
Sure, but if you have to spend this much time explaining what you mean, it seems counterproductive. And it’s going to attract the toxic personalities and opinions that we’re supposed to be liberating from.
Women’s liberation is not some esoteric piece of history. It’s in living memory for a lot of people and was a household term for decades. For those unfamiliar, I think it’s worth asking why that may be.
Right, but Women’s Liberation from what? A patriarchal society that oppressed and exploited women. Men’s Liberation is not at all the same. I agree with the mission statement, but women were second class citizens, denied education, denied positions of power, denied basic human rights and civic decency.
Men don’t require that level of liberation. Casting off societal pressures and expectations, living free of gender-based norms or requirements, and discussing how those pressures affect your life, those are noble pursuits and I’m here for it. I support that. I’m on your side.
I’m just saying that the comparison doesn’t highlight the things you want to highlight. The implication is that the struggle is the same, that the severity is equivalent, and in the worst case, the roles are reversed. Misogynistic morons will try to co-opt the name to say that men need liberation from women, and that’s just an absurd fantasy held by an alarming number of neckbearded alpha bros. It implies you support the patriarchy. I know you don’t. But I didn’t know that from the community name, I learned that by reading the explanation.
Consider that patriarchy hurts men too. There’s a lot of pressure to be a certain way in order to “be a man”, no crying or expressing emotions beyond anger or happiness, gotta be tough, that sort of thing. We can and should liberate ourselves from those toxic expectations
Edit: i’m sure someone else might be able to word it better, that’s just off the top of my head/how i interpret it
Naw you nailed it. It’s a reference to Women’s Lib
The name isn’t new, it comes from the same place as women’s lib, afaik the concept of Mens Lib has been around since the 70s. We all want to be free of harmful and unnecessary gender stereotypes. r/menslib was a great subreddit.
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