I know data privacy is important and I know that big corporations like Meta became powerful enough to even manipulate elections using our data.
But, when I talk to people in general, most seem to not worry because they “have nothing to hide”, and most are only worried about their passwords, banking apps and not much else.
So, why should people worry about data privacy even if they have “nothing to hide”?
Some things are private but not illegal, like taking a shit. There are zero good reasons to intrude on that scene and anyone who tries is suspect. Who cares if you have something to hide? Why are we ok with letting a megacorporation give us a digital colonoscopy when we’re only trying to live our lives?
I feel like the people in this thread saying you should ask for personal details are kind of missing the point of the ‘nothing to hide’ argument. It’s not that they feel they have nothing to hide from everyone, it’s that they feel they have nothing to hide from those with access to their data (governments/corporations). Knowing intimate life details of someone you know personally is very different from knowing intimate life details of some random person you’ll never meet. I would argue something like this instead:
Unless you’re a newborn, everyone in the US has broken thousands of laws in their life. It’s unavoidable. If corporations/the government have records of all that, if people don’t have privacy, the powers that be have the power to put anyone and everyone in prison for the rest of their lives at their discretion.
Even if you’re not worried now, once your data is out there it’s not coming back. You may agree with the policy of government and corporations now, but can you be sure that’ll be the case in ten years? Twenty? Thirty? Who knows how laws and regimes will change, and through all that, they’ll always have power over you.
Finally someone who gets it. Imo, the comments asking those people to hand over bank details and similar stuff can harm the argument. I mean, if someone told me that, I’d just say I do that every time I go to the bank. Or my bank has those details and they’re made up of people like me. It won’t really convince me that privacy is important since most of them probably have never experienced getting their accounts hacked.
While this is far more elaborate, I agree it’s the best approach if the other person is willing to have a discussion.
You may sprinkle it with actual examples of what’s happening in China with their point system: not getting bus tickets or loan grants or whatever because you not even mentioned something critical somewhere but are associated with someone how did.
They may say it’s unrealistic but 30 years ago Eastern Germany was the same. They just lacked the tech and needed to recruit regular people as spies.
Those corporations and governements have people employed who can have (and usually do have) access to the data. Intentional or unintentional. So would they still be comfortable knowing that I’m able to lookup their data? That’s what the personal questions are about.
If the government still had personal interactions with a clerk at a desk, would they still be comfortable sharing everything they do now?
It’s not unreasonable to answer yes to that first question; that’s why it’s not the most sound argument. I was pretty firmly in the ‘nothing to hide’ camp for a long time because that was the only reason I heard. I really don’t care if some random government office worker knows about all the intimate details about my life. I don’t mind if you know I’ve been having prostate problems, but that’s not something I would tell to someone I know personally.
I meant that when asking those questions, you are familiar with the person you’re speaking with. Indeed, when I ask you those questions the answers would be the same since we (presumably) don’t know eachother.
they have nothing to hide from those with access to their data (governments/corporations).
That is only a good point until you remind them that the government/corporations aren’t just entities but also consist of people, any of which could end up being their neighbor tomorrow, hold their next job interview, be their next potential tinder match, etc.
Of course the rest of what you wrote is true too, but I really felt the need to point this out.
To give an example: I’m in data science. As part of a contract work I had access to a csv dump of a database of addresses of all people who ordered campaign material for a specific political campaign. I could have easily sated my own curiosity and checked who in my near vacinity is in that list, as well as the exact amounts that they ordered and some other notes about them. Suddenly it wouldn’t just be some corporation anymore but their neighbor.
This is a good point and got me thinking of something that would be a better example. I understand the point that it’s because they don’t really care about some corporation without a face collecting their info, which is different from you who they personally know asking them to unlock their phone and give it to you.
Maybe a good example would be their baby monitor or home camera? Let them know that anyone on the internet can tap into their camera feed because those companies don’t lock them down. Not that anyone is looking at it, but anyone could if they wanted to. Would that be a more convincing argument to ask if they are fine with that since they have nothing to hide?
It’s a service you’re providing to a company that they’re selling for profit but you’re not getting any compensation for. If you’re fine with that, that’s your right.
I mean, if you have nothing to hide, then surely you don’t need window blinds or a bedroom door? It should also mean that it’s okay for guests to rifle through your closet and dresser drawers, right?
You may have nothing to hide now but what if your (political) opponents reach a point where they have access to your data and the (political) power to use it? What happens if they don’t like your opinions which (you think) you don’t have to hide now?
My opinions may mostly align with the current general consensus in my country and since I’m not politically active I am rather unlikely to be harmed because of my opinions in the foreseeable future (unless I call someone 1 Pimmel). But there are certain developments that are troubling and there are people who don’t like what I’ve said on the internet (duh). Now, I’m not exactly anyone important and realistically there are far more important targets than me personally. But still, it’s not unthinkable that the things I’ve said (things I’ve looked at on the internet, things I’ve bought, things I’ve like/upvoted) might be used to my detriment if certain people came into a position where they have access to any stored data on me.
This applies regardless of your political leanings. If data exists, no matter how harmless it may seem, there’s always the possibility of people who REALLY don’t like it getting access.
I have done nothing illegal and nothing wrong, yet I have everything to hide.
I don’t trust what judgements our governments 10 years from now wants to put on me, my family and my children based on my current loud political acceptance of trans rights, free abortion, and my express hatred of fascism.
This literally happened with abortion rights in the US. People put their health data unencrypted in apps, because they „had nothing to hide“. Then the law changed.
I’m interested, would it be different if 10 years ago you were anti-LGBT, anti-abortion and fascist, but changed your mind? Would you consider others judging you for that now acceptable?
It’s a random thought, no deeper meaning or provocation.
People randomly judging you can get quite similar to a whole government, or a whole government may be no more of a nuisance that people randomly judging you.
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Some things are private but not illegal, like taking a shit. There are zero good reasons to intrude on that scene and anyone who tries is suspect. Who cares if you have something to hide? Why are we ok with letting a megacorporation give us a digital colonoscopy when we’re only trying to live our lives?
“ok show me your browser history. Let me see your text messages too while you’re at it.”
“I’ll need to see your ID, Social, and bank info to prove it.”, then start posting that on Facebook.
They are appealing to the fallacy that hiding things means bad behavior.
Not true. There are plenty of good reasons to hide things. Social security numbers, income, bank account info, even personal preferences.
Privacy != bad
I feel like the people in this thread saying you should ask for personal details are kind of missing the point of the ‘nothing to hide’ argument. It’s not that they feel they have nothing to hide from everyone, it’s that they feel they have nothing to hide from those with access to their data (governments/corporations). Knowing intimate life details of someone you know personally is very different from knowing intimate life details of some random person you’ll never meet. I would argue something like this instead:
Unless you’re a newborn, everyone in the US has broken thousands of laws in their life. It’s unavoidable. If corporations/the government have records of all that, if people don’t have privacy, the powers that be have the power to put anyone and everyone in prison for the rest of their lives at their discretion.
Even if you’re not worried now, once your data is out there it’s not coming back. You may agree with the policy of government and corporations now, but can you be sure that’ll be the case in ten years? Twenty? Thirty? Who knows how laws and regimes will change, and through all that, they’ll always have power over you.
Finally someone who gets it. Imo, the comments asking those people to hand over bank details and similar stuff can harm the argument. I mean, if someone told me that, I’d just say I do that every time I go to the bank. Or my bank has those details and they’re made up of people like me. It won’t really convince me that privacy is important since most of them probably have never experienced getting their accounts hacked.
While this is far more elaborate, I agree it’s the best approach if the other person is willing to have a discussion.
You may sprinkle it with actual examples of what’s happening in China with their point system: not getting bus tickets or loan grants or whatever because you not even mentioned something critical somewhere but are associated with someone how did.
They may say it’s unrealistic but 30 years ago Eastern Germany was the same. They just lacked the tech and needed to recruit regular people as spies.
Those corporations and governements have people employed who can have (and usually do have) access to the data. Intentional or unintentional. So would they still be comfortable knowing that I’m able to lookup their data? That’s what the personal questions are about.
If the government still had personal interactions with a clerk at a desk, would they still be comfortable sharing everything they do now?
It’s not unreasonable to answer yes to that first question; that’s why it’s not the most sound argument. I was pretty firmly in the ‘nothing to hide’ camp for a long time because that was the only reason I heard. I really don’t care if some random government office worker knows about all the intimate details about my life. I don’t mind if you know I’ve been having prostate problems, but that’s not something I would tell to someone I know personally.
I meant that when asking those questions, you are familiar with the person you’re speaking with. Indeed, when I ask you those questions the answers would be the same since we (presumably) don’t know eachother.
That is only a good point until you remind them that the government/corporations aren’t just entities but also consist of people, any of which could end up being their neighbor tomorrow, hold their next job interview, be their next potential tinder match, etc.
Of course the rest of what you wrote is true too, but I really felt the need to point this out.
To give an example: I’m in data science. As part of a contract work I had access to a csv dump of a database of addresses of all people who ordered campaign material for a specific political campaign. I could have easily sated my own curiosity and checked who in my near vacinity is in that list, as well as the exact amounts that they ordered and some other notes about them. Suddenly it wouldn’t just be some corporation anymore but their neighbor.
This is a good point and got me thinking of something that would be a better example. I understand the point that it’s because they don’t really care about some corporation without a face collecting their info, which is different from you who they personally know asking them to unlock their phone and give it to you.
Maybe a good example would be their baby monitor or home camera? Let them know that anyone on the internet can tap into their camera feed because those companies don’t lock them down. Not that anyone is looking at it, but anyone could if they wanted to. Would that be a more convincing argument to ask if they are fine with that since they have nothing to hide?
It’s a service you’re providing to a company that they’re selling for profit but you’re not getting any compensation for. If you’re fine with that, that’s your right.
I mean, if you have nothing to hide, then surely you don’t need window blinds or a bedroom door? It should also mean that it’s okay for guests to rifle through your closet and dresser drawers, right?
You may have nothing to hide now but what if your (political) opponents reach a point where they have access to your data and the (political) power to use it? What happens if they don’t like your opinions which (you think) you don’t have to hide now?
My opinions may mostly align with the current general consensus in my country and since I’m not politically active I am rather unlikely to be harmed because of my opinions in the foreseeable future (unless I call someone 1 Pimmel). But there are certain developments that are troubling and there are people who don’t like what I’ve said on the internet (duh). Now, I’m not exactly anyone important and realistically there are far more important targets than me personally. But still, it’s not unthinkable that the things I’ve said (things I’ve looked at on the internet, things I’ve bought, things I’ve like/upvoted) might be used to my detriment if certain people came into a position where they have access to any stored data on me.
This applies regardless of your political leanings. If data exists, no matter how harmless it may seem, there’s always the possibility of people who REALLY don’t like it getting access.
I have done nothing illegal and nothing wrong, yet I have everything to hide.
I don’t trust what judgements our governments 10 years from now wants to put on me, my family and my children based on my current loud political acceptance of trans rights, free abortion, and my express hatred of fascism.
This literally happened with abortion rights in the US. People put their health data unencrypted in apps, because they „had nothing to hide“. Then the law changed.
I’m interested, would it be different if 10 years ago you were anti-LGBT, anti-abortion and fascist, but changed your mind? Would you consider others judging you for that now acceptable?
It’s a random thought, no deeper meaning or provocation.
Oh, people could, and my friends would.
People randomly judging me is a different worry than having an oppressive government or malign actors with documentation on my “problems”.
Depends on the subset of rules you evaluate.
People randomly judging you can get quite similar to a whole government, or a whole government may be no more of a nuisance that people randomly judging you.
But I suppose this is too far off the topic.
Gee whiz, that sounds like something to hide!
“So you’ll have no problem with me watching you poop then”
Ask if they close their window blinds at night
Do you shit with the bathroom door open? You don’t mind if I watch you while you shit then, do you?
That is like saying you have nothing to say, so don’t need free speech rights