I think you could argue that this is an example of cognitive dissonance. It is uncomfortable to come face to face with new information that contradicts your beliefs or actions, and it requires energy if you want to integrate that new information into your worldview and adjust your actions. It is much easier to deny that information, even when it is clearly true.
For example, when it came out that aspartame might cause cancer, if you (like me) have eaten/drunk a lot of products containing it or have had a strong belief that it was completely safe, then it may be more comfortable for you to criticize WHO or think “well, it’s not really relevant for me because my family isn’t predisposed for cancer.” If you didn’t care about aspartame or artificial sweeteners before, you will probably readily accept that there may or may not be a cancer link.
Because we’re emotional creatures first, we default to what’s familiar or comfortable. Logic/critical thinking take sustained practice and a lot of effort. There’s a study that suggests that many of our conscious choices are simply post-hoc rationalizations for decisions made in the unconscious.
I absolutely no longer trust anyone that insists they’re naturally and perfectly logical, they are unquestionably hiding some fixation or personal opinion which–if challenged–will make them unravel in the worst fashion.
Because in most cases, what is assumed to be “truth”is subjective. If you’re talking political. More often things are blurred with regards to truth as most things tend not to be empirically true, but instead, emotionally true.
For example;
“All conservatives are Nazis!”
This is inherently untrue. Yet I see every day- people who believe this to be the absolute truth. Same thing with-
“All liberals want to do is make our children gay!”
Also untrue. But when you try and correct them, they will almost always entrench themselves within their own version of the truth and disregard any form of critical thinking.
This is why asking questions is important. All conservatives are Nazis may actually be true if the person merely equates conservatives with Nazis, the proposition a mere tautology. Same for liberals trying to make kids gay, where people who make kids gay are liberals.
And by asking questions, trying to understand someone else, both parties can engage in critical thinking.
I think it’s wrong to think that critical thinking should spontaneously arise because someone’s beliefs are challenged. That’s never how it works. Rather, one person has to be vulnerable and ask, “What do you mean? Help me understand where you’re coming from.”
That’s sort of exactly the point. People believe it to be true, and it’s sort of impossible to prove them wrong. Nature vs Nurture still isn’t proven either way, regardless of how strongly you feel one way or the other.
The simple fact that someone believes it’s possible to “make people gay”, almost necessarily leads to them believing there are people out there actively doing it.
Sure, but the problem isn’t fundamentally different from any other based on different views of how the world works, which is important. It means that it’s subject to the Socratic Method, for example, or any other method of inquiry that helps people explore their own beliefs.
What it means to “make people gay” may just mean having LGBTQIA+ stuff in the general area, inviting others to come out and normalizing the behavior. I’m willing to bet that’s exactly what it means based on what I’ve seen and read. And even if I disagree with that perspective, it makes way more sense than literally forcing people to become gay. And that’s definitely a step forward than merely thinking that person is as dumb as a box of rocks, because now understand how they’re as a dumb as a box of rocks.
I can only read the beginning of his tweet/story as someone who is not signed up to Twitter. He also says there is a link somewhere, but I don’t see one.
There was a study about sometihng simiilar a while back. It was posted on Reddit, so if that site hasn’t imploded yet, you might be able to find it. I don’t remember the whole thing, but it said a lot of people rather double-down on their already accepted beliefs than open themselves up to new results. It wasn’t everyone, of course and it wasn’t for all topics either. Maybe someone can go find that study and post it here for OP.
When in reality, if you are faced with knowledge of your wrongness and make a correction, then over time you grow. In which case, being wrong is a strength of sorts.
Some people honestly believe the Earth is 6000 years old. And not a little amount of people, giant percentages of the United States of America. They believe dinosaur bones were placed by Satan. These people walk amongst us.
how are you going to reason with somebody like that??
The vast majority, virtually all, believe so because they believe that is what the Bible says.
And since they also believe their interpretation is the only correct one, and said interpretation requires everything be accepted OR they’ll go to eternal hellfire and burn forever there, as they deserve, there is basically no way to change this worldview without shattering it entirely. It benefits from being fragile because it causes so much mental anguish to depart from it, and people who walk away can turn into totally different people as a result of rejecting it and thus being rejected by their friends and family and community at large.
You, as a single, and likely, stranger to them, can’t get them to change. Alternative points of view or lifestyles are evidence of Satan’s trickery, so directed and deliberate debate with these people functions for them as a test of faith: they just have to weather the blows and they get Good Christian points and become closer to God. Nevermind that you have no intention of causing them harm or tricking them: you want to do the opposite, but it doesn’t matter.
The best you can do is be a kind person and be sure of yourself and your views. Planting a seed of doubt is much better than being used as a piece of evidence that they should not be looking for friends in worldly places.
Which is funny, since the idea that you’ll go off the deep end and become a cruelly nihilistic hedonist if you ever leave is such a constant drumbeat in that culture.
Yup. I was going to be a pastor until, at college for it… some LGBTQ protests came to campus (late 2k’s) and saw people being down right hateful. And everyone else being okay with that.
Made me realize…. I was an asshole. I didn’t want to be an asshole.
I mean - it may be that OP finds himself constantly coming across Young Earthers - but I am interested in hearing directly about the kinds of opinions they find the rest of the world struggles with.
People don’t like making mistakes. I don’t know if it’s innate or a cultural phenomenon, but in my experience, the immediate reaction to a mistake is a bad feeling—even for inconsequential ones in a friendly environment. Being wrong is not only making a mistake, but living by it. There’s a much greater incentive to not be wrong. The easiest way for an individual to “not be wrong” (in their view) is to assume that the other is wrong, so they reject their hypotheses in a discussion.
When you interact with people, you often do it on your grounds, i.e. in your area of expertise. This inherently means that you are more likely to be right in a discussion. I believe this transfers to other areas of your life – where you are not the expert. So you automatically assume you’re right even if you aren’t. However, in my experience this doesn’t apply to situations where you are very aware that you are the (intellectually) subordinate person, e.g. when talking to a doctor.
Seriously, that title is worded like a straight up attack. Such a question, while open ended in who would consider what truth, still leads to the same outcome: engagement based purely on outrage and “proving the other side wrong.”
I sometimes wonder if people post things like this with the intention of filtering through comments to block people that post their political viewpoints in response. If thats the case, I would conssider this a very effective and intelligent post. However, I don’t think that this is the case.
On one hand people often don’t like to hear bad news or an idea that means they have to do a thing or face a problem. On the other hand how a person is told the idea is a big part of a negative reaction. Often there is no reason to tell someone the thing at all.
I’ll be straight forward if someone asks but I’m not “brutality honest”. OP sounds like the “brutality honest” without anyone asking type.
Every person I know who is one of those people that can’t be persuaded by logical arguments backed by irrefutable sources seems to have a powerful sense of ego/pride trending towards narcissistic. My father is like that, my stepdaughter-in-law, my former best friend, my kids former football coach, they’re all people think they’re smarter than everyone else, they still suffer from the same self doubt we all face but instead of facing those self doubts and finding teachable moments to learn and grow from, they instead doubledown on how great they are, and how much better than you they think they are.
Most people’s values and beliefs are all wrapped up with their sense of self, so if those beliefs get attacked, they feel like they’re being attacked.
Avoiding this is very tricky and counter-intuitive, but there are techniques. Look up “street epistemology” if you’d like to know more. There’s a guy on YouTube who goes to college campuses and has discussions with passersby regarding their beliefs. Basically, it’s asking people “What do you believe?” and “Why do you believe that?” Like I said, though, it’s tricky and takes a lot of practice, and it’s really easy to fall back into old patterns again.
Be honest, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much does this question have to do with your constant posting about how the maaaaan, maaaaan, is holding down all your crypto “investments” and they’re due to go to the moon any day now as soon as the cabal of lizard people who run the world is eradicated?
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I think you could argue that this is an example of cognitive dissonance. It is uncomfortable to come face to face with new information that contradicts your beliefs or actions, and it requires energy if you want to integrate that new information into your worldview and adjust your actions. It is much easier to deny that information, even when it is clearly true.
For example, when it came out that aspartame might cause cancer, if you (like me) have eaten/drunk a lot of products containing it or have had a strong belief that it was completely safe, then it may be more comfortable for you to criticize WHO or think “well, it’s not really relevant for me because my family isn’t predisposed for cancer.” If you didn’t care about aspartame or artificial sweeteners before, you will probably readily accept that there may or may not be a cancer link.
This might be spot on
Because we’re emotional creatures first, we default to what’s familiar or comfortable. Logic/critical thinking take sustained practice and a lot of effort. There’s a study that suggests that many of our conscious choices are simply post-hoc rationalizations for decisions made in the unconscious.
I absolutely no longer trust anyone that insists they’re naturally and perfectly logical, they are unquestionably hiding some fixation or personal opinion which–if challenged–will make them unravel in the worst fashion.
Agree. Every single “logical” person I’ve met has had no more logic than anyone else, just incredibly low EQ.
deleted by creator
No they don’t. 🧌
Really though, look up brain plasticity.
Not sure if this is helpful, but my take is:
Because in most cases, what is assumed to be “truth”is subjective. If you’re talking political. More often things are blurred with regards to truth as most things tend not to be empirically true, but instead, emotionally true.
For example;
“All conservatives are Nazis!”
This is inherently untrue. Yet I see every day- people who believe this to be the absolute truth. Same thing with-
“All liberals want to do is make our children gay!”
Also untrue. But when you try and correct them, they will almost always entrench themselves within their own version of the truth and disregard any form of critical thinking.
This is why asking questions is important. All conservatives are Nazis may actually be true if the person merely equates conservatives with Nazis, the proposition a mere tautology. Same for liberals trying to make kids gay, where people who make kids gay are liberals.
And by asking questions, trying to understand someone else, both parties can engage in critical thinking.
I think it’s wrong to think that critical thinking should spontaneously arise because someone’s beliefs are challenged. That’s never how it works. Rather, one person has to be vulnerable and ask, “What do you mean? Help me understand where you’re coming from.”
I don’t think there is such a thing like making someone gay.
I have a friend who had surgery to become gay. He was a straight guy before the surgery, and now she is a lesbian.
Can’t argue against straight facts
Fake. Was already a lesbian pre surgery.
The real power of the rainbow carebear stare.
That’s sort of exactly the point. People believe it to be true, and it’s sort of impossible to prove them wrong. Nature vs Nurture still isn’t proven either way, regardless of how strongly you feel one way or the other.
The simple fact that someone believes it’s possible to “make people gay”, almost necessarily leads to them believing there are people out there actively doing it.
Sure, but the problem isn’t fundamentally different from any other based on different views of how the world works, which is important. It means that it’s subject to the Socratic Method, for example, or any other method of inquiry that helps people explore their own beliefs.
What it means to “make people gay” may just mean having LGBTQIA+ stuff in the general area, inviting others to come out and normalizing the behavior. I’m willing to bet that’s exactly what it means based on what I’ve seen and read. And even if I disagree with that perspective, it makes way more sense than literally forcing people to become gay. And that’s definitely a step forward than merely thinking that person is as dumb as a box of rocks, because now understand how they’re as a dumb as a box of rocks.
Some were very fine people.
https://twitter.com/juliusgoat/status/1679817901350567936?s=46&t=93HlSZBQz_rGRu4plCicig
Has the answer.
I can only read the beginning of his tweet/story as someone who is not signed up to Twitter. He also says there is a link somewhere, but I don’t see one.
https://nitter.1d4.us/juliusgoat/status/1679817901350567936
damn it’s cool that nitter is working again!
yeah linking to Twitter threads is a complete mess now since Elon fucked that up
Many reasons.
There was a study about sometihng simiilar a while back. It was posted on Reddit, so if that site hasn’t imploded yet, you might be able to find it. I don’t remember the whole thing, but it said a lot of people rather double-down on their already accepted beliefs than open themselves up to new results. It wasn’t everyone, of course and it wasn’t for all topics either. Maybe someone can go find that study and post it here for OP.
People don’t like being wrong.
Being wrong has long been viewed as a form of weakness.
I’m weak several times a day.
My kink is admitting when I am wrong.
Well you’re wrong
When in reality, if you are faced with knowledge of your wrongness and make a correction, then over time you grow. In which case, being wrong is a strength of sorts.
I’d be interested in a example. What is an example of a truth that you have found it difficult to get people to accept?
Some people honestly believe the Earth is 6000 years old. And not a little amount of people, giant percentages of the United States of America. They believe dinosaur bones were placed by Satan. These people walk amongst us.
how are you going to reason with somebody like that??
The vast majority, virtually all, believe so because they believe that is what the Bible says.
And since they also believe their interpretation is the only correct one, and said interpretation requires everything be accepted OR they’ll go to eternal hellfire and burn forever there, as they deserve, there is basically no way to change this worldview without shattering it entirely. It benefits from being fragile because it causes so much mental anguish to depart from it, and people who walk away can turn into totally different people as a result of rejecting it and thus being rejected by their friends and family and community at large.
You, as a single, and likely, stranger to them, can’t get them to change. Alternative points of view or lifestyles are evidence of Satan’s trickery, so directed and deliberate debate with these people functions for them as a test of faith: they just have to weather the blows and they get Good Christian points and become closer to God. Nevermind that you have no intention of causing them harm or tricking them: you want to do the opposite, but it doesn’t matter.
The best you can do is be a kind person and be sure of yourself and your views. Planting a seed of doubt is much better than being used as a piece of evidence that they should not be looking for friends in worldly places.
While I never believed in YE creationism… i did a become a better person when I turned apostate.
A substantially better person, if I’m being honest.
Which is funny, since the idea that you’ll go off the deep end and become a cruelly nihilistic hedonist if you ever leave is such a constant drumbeat in that culture.
Yup. I was going to be a pastor until, at college for it… some LGBTQ protests came to campus (late 2k’s) and saw people being down right hateful. And everyone else being okay with that.
Made me realize…. I was an asshole. I didn’t want to be an asshole.
Only morons would believe the world was 6000 years old. The universe started last Thursday.
I mean - it may be that OP finds himself constantly coming across Young Earthers - but I am interested in hearing directly about the kinds of opinions they find the rest of the world struggles with.
“you can never reason a man out of an opinion he was not reasoned into”
@ArtVandelay Logic is not what got them into this situation, logic is not what will get them out of it
@lemminer @HeartyBeast @leapingleopard
People don’t like making mistakes. I don’t know if it’s innate or a cultural phenomenon, but in my experience, the immediate reaction to a mistake is a bad feeling—even for inconsequential ones in a friendly environment. Being wrong is not only making a mistake, but living by it. There’s a much greater incentive to not be wrong. The easiest way for an individual to “not be wrong” (in their view) is to assume that the other is wrong, so they reject their hypotheses in a discussion.
When you interact with people, you often do it on your grounds, i.e. in your area of expertise. This inherently means that you are more likely to be right in a discussion. I believe this transfers to other areas of your life – where you are not the expert. So you automatically assume you’re right even if you aren’t. However, in my experience this doesn’t apply to situations where you are very aware that you are the (intellectually) subordinate person, e.g. when talking to a doctor.
Your title is un-self critical and condescending, so your conversations probably aren’t terribly productive in either direction.
That turn of phrase has never been used by someone conversing in good faith and with an open mind.
Edit: Jack Nicholson excepted
Seriously, that title is worded like a straight up attack. Such a question, while open ended in who would consider what truth, still leads to the same outcome: engagement based purely on outrage and “proving the other side wrong.”
I sometimes wonder if people post things like this with the intention of filtering through comments to block people that post their political viewpoints in response. If thats the case, I would conssider this a very effective and intelligent post. However, I don’t think that this is the case.
My goodness that sounds like a lot of work lol.
“Can’t handle the truth” = I’m gonna write you off as a whole person and call you weak and stupid because we disagree.
On one hand people often don’t like to hear bad news or an idea that means they have to do a thing or face a problem. On the other hand how a person is told the idea is a big part of a negative reaction. Often there is no reason to tell someone the thing at all.
I’ll be straight forward if someone asks but I’m not “brutality honest”. OP sounds like the “brutality honest” without anyone asking type.
I enjoy your username
He needed a good title. You cant judge a persons conversation skills based on that…
Pride/ego
Every person I know who is one of those people that can’t be persuaded by logical arguments backed by irrefutable sources seems to have a powerful sense of ego/pride trending towards narcissistic. My father is like that, my stepdaughter-in-law, my former best friend, my kids former football coach, they’re all people think they’re smarter than everyone else, they still suffer from the same self doubt we all face but instead of facing those self doubts and finding teachable moments to learn and grow from, they instead doubledown on how great they are, and how much better than you they think they are.
I hate to tell you this, but this isn’t only a trait of narcissists. This is something that most people do. It’s a lot worse with narcissists, though.
Hence why I said “trending towards narcissistic”
Most people’s values and beliefs are all wrapped up with their sense of self, so if those beliefs get attacked, they feel like they’re being attacked.
Avoiding this is very tricky and counter-intuitive, but there are techniques. Look up “street epistemology” if you’d like to know more. There’s a guy on YouTube who goes to college campuses and has discussions with passersby regarding their beliefs. Basically, it’s asking people “What do you believe?” and “Why do you believe that?” Like I said, though, it’s tricky and takes a lot of practice, and it’s really easy to fall back into old patterns again.
Be honest, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much does this question have to do with your constant posting about how the maaaaan, maaaaan, is holding down all your crypto “investments” and they’re due to go to the moon any day now as soon as the cabal of lizard people who run the world is eradicated?
You just can’t handle our reptilian overlords smh
Damn, I wish I’d noticed this bit of context before responding.