China is socialist and Russia is historically the anti-imperialist communist power. You wanted to spread your vile Anglo bullshit but are now unsuccessful.
China is not socialist mate, it’s technically a market economy with “chinese characteristics” and is run by one massive coalition. there’s private property ownership in China, there is stock exchange for example.
Its funny how you just wiped off “socialist” from the term used to describe mainland – market socialist economy with Chinese characteristics. Screaming about the miniscule existence of private property or stock exchange is a delusional and dishonest way to portray China as not being socialist. Their socialism comes from prosperity of over a billion people on their land, and prosperity of rest of the world via cheap manufactured goods that increase purchasing power of literally every person on earth that is not a rich capitalist pig.
That was disrespectful, literally no one in Hungary thinks positively of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and the oppression of the Habsburg Empire. It was not a coincidence that in 1918 the monarchy was overthrown by revolution and replaced with a people’s republic then with a soviet republic in 1919.
I am Hungarian, and it would have made more sense to bring up any other post-socialist country instead. One of the most popular historical leaders of Hungary is János Kádár, who was the one who requested help from the Soviet Union in 1956 after Imre Nagy announced that he would withdraw from the Warsaw Pact.
Also, at the second parliamentary election after the socialist era, MSZP (one of the successor parties of the Hungarian Socialist Workers’ Party, alongside the Hungarian Workers’ Party) campaigned on the promise of democratically restoring all the “good things” (they put it this way) from socialism, which immediately won them all the parliamentary seats that could be won by one party in 1994. Of course, the MSZP did not keep any of their campaign promises and implemented more neoliberal policies with strong austerity (the infamous Bokros package). The then-prime minister, Gyula Horn, also made explicitly anti-strike statements. As a result, there was a significant chance that the still-Marxist Hungarian Workers’ Party would enter parliament in the 1998 parliamentary election. Therefore, the parliamentary parties voted to raise the electoral threshold in common agreement, so that this could not happen.
TLDR:
In Hungary, the assessment of the socialist era is not as black and white as many people think.
Before the current Ukraine war people would have said fighting Russia would be a lost fight, but we’ve learned a lot since then about what their readiness actually looks like. This makes me wonder if China is all that tough, or if they just talk a good game.
Exactly it is exactly how you sound, conservative does not equal Nazi or fascist. Actual Nazis don’t believe in freedom of speech and would murder you without giving you a chance to criticise.
People are hurting and the right is blaming people (because that’s what the right always does), and people are eating it up. I’ve got a bunch of friends that are currently drinking the hate-machine cool-aid, but when I ask them questions to explain why they hold those views, they just simply can’t answer - propaganda works.
For example, a good friend of mine last week said in a car full of people he wished everyone in California died of a massive nuclear blast and he would throw a party on the news of their millions of deaths. I called him out about it to explain why - he said the governor was fucking everything up. I asked for a specific detail, he couldn’t think of one other than yelling woke woke woke. I asked him what woke means, he said he doesn’t know but it’s bad - gays and rainbows and trans and something about he has to like it. Needless to point out that he is a victim of the hate machine (his kid came out as trans, and I asked if he wanted his kid to be mistreated, and of course he wants the best for his kid…)
People don’t form these opinions where they wish the death of millions of unknown people all on their own, and they usually get echo chambered into those extreme views first.
You don’t see me wishing for the deaths of everyone in some state because my news channel tells me the governor of that state is a bad guy - perhaps if you actually had something better to say we could discuss this topic
Well then take the first shot and start the war… Otherwise it’ll just be drama memes for LIFE.
The war is inevitable… The sooner it starts the sooner it’s over. Neighbors, family, cops, thugs, there’s no knowing who the enemy is. It’s everyone vs everyone…
I see no point in furthing my personal life and goals until something real is done.
There’s definitely a discussion to be had for how the very far right (people whose core political ideology is based in racial prejudice and literal palingenetic ultranationalism) latch onto the sole major conservative political party in the United States and how they, as a component voting block, are catered to, if not explicitly represented by, portions of that party, and even dog whistled to by the party as a whole. This post, though, comes across as straight liberal smugposting and is somewhere between completely useless and actively harmful.
Agree with almost everything except the useless or harmful part. It’s just a meme meant for a quick laugh, it’s not that serious.
If we want to be serious though, the Republican party has been going further and further right in the past couple of years. The meme is kind of expressing this in a way.
the Republican party has been going further and further right in the past couple of years.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’ve never heard of Strom Thurmond?
Also, I would argue that memes like this are more designed for reddit style, low-effort upvote farming, than anything genuinely productive. This makes Lemmy worse and oversimplifies any conversation about American politics, with all of its complex and disparate, if nominally similar, but still competing ideologies, and how they shape its material composition and practical functioning. This all a fancy way of saying that the underlying sentiment of “Republicans are all Nazis and we don’t need to understand them further than that” attempts to trivialize a complex problem and a complex set of ideological beliefs and leverages that oversimplification as banal clickbait. And it makes those that consume it dumber for having done so, potentially.
It’s no different in function from any other form of demonising the outgroup. It’s slightly less bad than some because your political views can change, but it’s still a sign of politics gone wrong.
Targets was a minor one but still a good update! The new logo is much more eye catching, the red is what you immediately notice first, whereas the old one your attention was divided between the name text and circular logo.
The new logo is also much larger and uniform in colour making it easier to remember.
To be honest, a lot of Republicans are still very respectable. The republican platform is fucked up, but if you are talking to your neighbor, don’t make his party affliation equal to his personal belief. A Democrat doesn’t believe in everything in the Democrat’s platform either.
In that sense, insulting a party is not generally helpful for public discourse.
Ok I hate that you are beeing down voted. The downvote button is not the “I disagree” button, but more like a “this does not help the discussion” button. And your point was fair and your opinion. If you agree or not does not matter. That’s the point of a discussion for fucks sake.
Pls don’t get to that reddit point of downvoting. The downvote behavior was so nice here the first few weeks, after I joined, but got so much worse after the last very big reddit migration wave.
I agree the original commenter doesn’t deserve to be downvoted. If you disagree then leave a comment. Mass downvoting will build an echo chamber a la reddit
Here’s a little snippet from the documentation of lemmy.ml and lemmy.world.
I understand it as meaning that the downvote is actually there to express a negative opinion about something you don’t like.
Lemmy uses a voting system to sort post listings. On the left side of each post there are up and down arrows, which let you upvote or downvote it. You can upvote posts that you like so that more users will see them. Or downvote posts so that they are less likely to be seen. Each post receives a score which is the number of upvotes minus number of downvotes.
I think it would be better put as nonconstructive. It is this exact environment that fascism and other hateful ideologies, like to expand in. Where opinions are suppressed on the merit of, “their bad”, Instead of using the environment as a constructive place to display why that opinion is bad. Propaganda is most effective when all conversation is stopped.
I don’t give a shit about personal beliefs, I care about outcomes. Republicans’ desired outcomes actively hurt people I care about, so I can absolutely tell them to fuck off. Even if they don’t “believe in everything,” they are indifferent enough to let horrible things happen.
I think what is important is the accusations that you are making. Everyone (Nazis, Republicans, Democrats, Communists, etc) are people. They may be sick, decrepit, evil people, but they are people non the less and they still react like people. If you call a republican who hates Nazi’s a Nazi, they will ignore you thinking you to be an idiot incapable of even understanding the roots of their values. Why not just leave it at “A lot of republican policies have a grave harm to the american people. They impoverish the impoverished, enrich the rich, lead to countless avoidable deaths, and even though not intended to target LGBTQ+ people, they gravely effect these communities and their members. I think it is unwise to vote republican given their current methods of governance”. This will accurately describe the negatives of this party, you could go on to better explain the pitfalls of many of their policies, and you would do so in a way that a republican voter won’t go home and say “I ran into this crazy woke person who called me a Nazi for no reason. I don’t hate people because of who they love or who they are. I may vote “anti-LGBT” because I don’t think are children should be abused with books displaying sexual acts between men.” (Note in case you think I support that sentence, I hated writing it. I’m just quoting republicans that I’ve heard from, because I think it displays how they think). This would prevent the senseless “DEMOCRATS WOKE AND BAD” mentality that most republicans have, because a lot of democrats like to just label them, instead of engage in their thought processes and encourage them to grow as people. Their is a great quote that I try to live my life by “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle”.
Oh you don’t give a shit about personal beliefs? You the kind who thinks a king is better than a democracy? Because democracy is all about personal beliefs, and convincing your fellow citizens of what you think is right.
Dehumanizing your subject is easy. Republicans do that to people on the left too. Let’s just hate each other till we destroy each other. That’s gonna get a good society going.
Actually try having a job with outspoken republicans and see just how tolerant of you they are. Once they find out im gay its game over and my job ends soon after.
How many times? Three.
Does this happen in call cebter jobs? No, because the people are all centrists. But in the manual labor jobs i love its republicans who keep me from my dream.
Oh yeah I had to work with a guy who just couldn’t stop running off his mouth about Trump and how evil Republicans were. Everyone else was pretty nice to work with but that guy was just cringy all the time.
Then where is the Republican outrage against the fascist policies so many Republican politicians are advocating for? There are only two options: either they don’t care, or they’re secretly happy.
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.” ~~Martin Luther King, Jr
Exactly anyone today that votes Republican or calls themselves one (my boss) yet continues to vote republican just because either don’t care or wants what they want.
… did you read the MLK quote I included? The fact that there aren’t many Republicans loudly and repeatedly condemning the leaders of the party says exactly that. If you want to read the whole thing, I recommend you take a look at King’s full Letter from a Birmingham Jail to fully understand the point: silence means acceptance.
You look at this thread, and you ask “where’s all the voices”. You don’t find that ironic?
Silence could mean acceptance, it doesn’t mean agreement. Just like being on the left if I say “let’s keep the discussion going” all you fuckers are gonna downvote me to oblivion and accuse me of less intelligent and make anyone who have a different idea an outcast, it is the same thing for republicans. Someone who don’t go with the flow is made an outcast, so if you don’t agree, tough luck.
Yeh, if the left treat its different opinions like this, what the fuck you think a republican having a different opinion is treated like? So if you are strongly for the core policies of your affiliated party, would you raise your voice? Or if you did, you think those voices get heard and get reported?
See, now, the 1920s and 1930s taught us that reasonable debate with fascists is impossible. So where are all the Republicans in the public sphere standing up for moderation? No offense to you, but you’re a rando on the internet (and so am I). Where are the politicians standing up to the far right?
So where are all the Republicans in the public sphere standing up for moderation?
You know even from liberal media that there is a moderate republican faction, and they are indeed getting hammered exactly by people just like you but from the right.
See, now, the 1920s and 1930s taught us that reasonable debate with fascists is impossible.
Where did you learn that? A reasonable debate with any extremism is impossible, it isn’t just fascism. Point is you can’t let an ideology slip into extremism to begin with. If you refuse to debate your position, that’s already a sign of extremism, and calling your counterpart fascist doesn’t really make yourself better.
Your comment implies that people take insult when someone calls them out for supporting a platform that - just to take one example - decides it’s proper to prosecute victims of crime because they also think the government should have jurisdiction over woman’s body and a say in their health and wellbeing.
Is them taking umbrage to valid crisis the real issue here?
In the argument you call out, wasn’t the republican side pushing the decision of abortion legality to state level, putting it more in the hands of the people?
Edit: should clarify, I’m unaffiliated, and just looking for answers.
Yeah they pushed it for state level and when they realized most people even in Republican states didn’t support the ban they went straight to trying to push it federally.
It’s all a grift for the sake of control and power. Acting like it’s anything less when the mask has been removed makes you complicit which is why I say fuck all republicans.
Not familiar with those states but after a quick search:
Florida has an an abortion plan that permits prosecution of a women as a third degree felony in some circumstances.
Kansas prohibits abortions after 22 weeks and “a woman who seeks an abortion will be given state-mandated propaganda designed to change her mind. She will then have to look at an ultrasound image, wait 24 hours and pay for the procedure out of her own pocket.”
During the first trimester, when it was believed that the procedure was safer than childbirth, the Court ruled that a state government could place no restrictions on women’s ability to choose to abort pregnancies other than imposing minimal medical safeguards, such as requiring abortions to be performed by licensed physicians.[7] From the second trimester on, the Court ruled that evidence of increasing risks to the mother’s health gave states a compelling interest that allowed them to enact medical regulations on abortion procedures so long as they were reasonable and “narrowly tailored” to protecting mothers’ health.[7] From the beginning of the third trimester on—the point at which a fetus became viable under the medical technology available in the early 1970s—the Court ruled that a state’s interest in protecting prenatal life became so compelling that it could legally prohibit all abortions except where necessary to protect the mother’s life or health
You support a platform for many different reasons. For example you really want small government, so what choice do you have? And how do you know that a republican definitely is a pro-lifer? And if he is a prolifer, how do you know he believes government should control woman? You can’t just paint them all as evil as you imagined. What you imagined is not your neighbor.
You can’t just paint them all as evil as you imagine
Perfectly illustrates my point. I didn’t paint them as evil, I just criticised them. Big difference, which you seem unable to draw.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying “I get you have ideological views, but supporting a party that hurts people to win culture wars is not something I am not cool with”. Branding that as insulting or hateful is just attempting to dodging accountability by disingenuously claiming victim status.
Party allegiance aside, it’s unreasonable and hypocritical for anyone to support a platform with an agenda that will directly and adversely impacts broad swathes of society with an expectation that they will not be directly or adversely impacted by their actions and decisions (which in this case is something as innocuous as simply drawing criticism).
I didn’t paint them as evil, I just criticised them. Big difference, which you seem unable to draw.
Rebranding Nazism as Republicans is not painting them as evil?
I mean I understand as the discussion goes people often confuse themselves with what we are talking about, but the OP of the post is branding republicans as nazis, and nazis are people we don’t need to give any consideration to, these are people we should eliminate from the surface of the earth.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying “I get you have ideological views, but supporting a party that hurts people to win culture wars is not something I am not cool with”.
Hey you want to get things done you have to start somewhere. If you think your republican friends are better off getting a new party started, I guess you can start the conversation there.
But have a conversation, don’t just call them nazis.
I’m going to quote someone else in the comment section. Fuck republican, Fuck democrats. You are dealing with to evil sides, of which everyone must choose the lesser of two evils.
Amen brother. Everyone should be prepared to be face criticism, because no one is altruistic and never will be if they can’t bear to be challenged about their beliefs.
So something being messed up doesn’t mean you can’t support it. Let’s not even talk about the party, you might believe this country is fucked up. Every country have people who believe their own country has a lot of problems. It doesn’t mean you don’t support it. You support it because, say, you rely on it to achieve your own ideal, or perhaps you just love what it used to be and you want it to be more successful, or whatever.
The platform isn’t a singular thing. I can totally see someone who’s in the party to support small government and having to endure the mess that is abortion and extreme gun rights.
you might believe this country is fucked up. Every country have people who believe their own country has a lot of problems. It doesn’t mean you don’t support it.
Agree! Supporting your country =/= being complicit in all the bad shit done by or in the name of your country. That’s why activism exists, that’s why people can and will protest.
So how come this same logic doesn’t apply if the protests and activism is being directed at your republican neighbour?
Before you read. I made this comment while triggered and rushing. I do not believe that this comment holds the tone that I wanted to coney and I believe that it is poorly written. I leave it up, as I believe it would be a bit of a cop out to delete my comment, I also believe that some of the discourse below is productive and representative of my beliefs. I made a better version of my thoughts here: https://pawb.social/comment/926750.
ah yes. The old tradition of calling you political opponents nazis or communists, or liberals. Wasn’t this the worst part of nazism (ideologically speaking)? Instead of looking at the context, they defaulted to calling all jews spies. Or instead of looking at the struggles that come with integrating different societies and the benefits that come along with that, they just assumed that different races are fundementally incapable of cooperating? Or they saw everyone that didn’t agree with them as fundimentally evil, instead of understanding that there is at least a hint of truth in most phylosphies/political beliefs that they can learn from even if the belief is one that could be considered evil. A great example is abortion: on one hand, you’re litterally erasing the heart beat of another living being before their first breaths. On the other hand, I remember hearing of a 14 year old girl in my area who got pregnant, and you know that baby is done for… especially with the mismnaged mess that is american welfare. I absolutely disagree with many republican beliefs and idioligies, I hate the culture war BS that they petal. I hate watching them wine about cancel culture, and then they cancel a beer company because they gave a single free beer can to a trans woman. I get it, but messages like this only make them think you’re crazy because the idiologies of modern republicans do differ from nazism, maybe for some republicans more than others. But this isn’t helping; because if there is one thing nazism and white supremism feeds off the most… Its the “evil others”.
tldr; there are some differences between nazis and modern republicans (many of these characteristics are better in republicans), and trying to paint them otherwise is just asking for trouble. Acuse others only of what they are guilty.
I made on edit for clarity.
I made a second edit because the quote “evil “others”” could technically be construed that I think that the others are in fact evil. I used that language to note how Nazis and white supremism will often assume that others are evil for the mere fact that they are the “others” and I wanted to better get my idea across that this is bad.
I made a third edit: I add the (ideologically speaking) line after Wasn’t this the worst part of nazism?. I did this because others were thinking that I thought that was the most awful thing about nazism. The most awful part about nazism was the murdering and mistreatment of innocents. I meant to bring it up as this is the biggest flaw in their ideology. Most Nazis will just devolve into incoherent screaming when you bring up their error of generalizing groups of people.
No, and this is disgusting. The worst part was disenfranchising jews, LGBTQI*-People, communists, disabled people, sinti&roma and others, locking them up under terible conditions and killing millions of them. Deliberatly killing millions of people to get rid of them.
It’s the root of why they did that. This one single flaw, is what caused them to commit those acts. There is a difference between proximal and root causes. Say my boat is sinking. The proximal issue is that the boat is sinking (the problem I want to fix), the root cause is that there is a hole in my boat (what is causing my problem). The proximal issue with Nazis is that they murder millions and committed horrible acts. The root cause why they did these things, was because they generalized these groups to the point that genocide seemed reasonable to themselves. Instead of looking at the contexts or considering that there are other morals at play.
The Nazis over-generalising Jews was secondary as a simple means to an end of removing a faction that disagrees with Nazis. The correct way to say it was that, to gain and maintain power, the conservatives scapegoated Jews, socialists, and dissidents, to help generate hatred and genocidal tendencies to ultimately overthrow democracy and remove threats to capitalist power. Jews, socialists, and dissidents in general were framed using any random words that sounded good and then killed off. Conservative values are based on using power in any way to achieve their goal; If you think that their contradictory, scapegoating, culture wars make no sense, its because you aren’t looking at it simply enough. they lie and get what they want each step of the way.
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you trust the conservative lies about what a communism and socialism is.
Calling the NAZIs conservatives doesn’t quite fit the history of Germany. Conservative is an ideology that depends on time and place. For example conservatives in Russia are pro-communism.
In the case of the NAZIs they were progressive nationalist socialists advocating for a “third way" that was not liberalism or communism, which is why they campaigned hard as anti-marxists and anti-capitalists. Anti-semitistm was of course a major part of this as well and part of the reason Jewish conspiracy theories seem to simultaneously be associated with both marxism and capitalism.
The key overlap between Fascism, Nazism , and conservatism is that they are all exactly the correct definition on recent conservatism which is best described by the following quote from Frank Wilhoit:
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit:
There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
Conservative values in the modern sense is taking power, while saying whatever the hell helps you take power. It applies perfectly to Nazis and Fascists historically.
If you zoom in on Nazi actions, you see clearly they have the same style as modern conservatives. I hope you don’t misunderstand, I’m not calling Nazis conservatives, I’m calling conservatives NAZIS; And by that I mean the way they use power. ANYTHING to gain and maintain power, the rest is an illusion.
In the case of the NAZIs they were progressive nationalist socialists advocating for a “third way" that was not liberalism or communism, which is why they campaigned hard as anti-marxists and anti-capitalists. Anti-semitistm was of course a major part of this as well and part of the reason Jewish conspiracy theories seem to simultaneously be associated with both marxism and capitalism.
Nazis acted as standard capitalists. They busted unions, they worked alongside corporations without really controlling them in a bad way for them etc. We have tons of jokes about old Nazi companies like Hugo boss that just mysteriously got overlooked and thrived for some time after WW2. They never lost their identity or profits, they gained a lot. It’s the people that lost, as always. Fascist(as we call it today) actions are really just capitalist democracies, that throw away the illusion of democracy, more specifically, they can no longer maintain the illusion - see conservatism.
As for Russians, I’ve been saying this a lot but… I don’t speak Russian, I don’t speak Mandarin, Haven’t visited them, I haven’t done the levels of research needed for me to have an opinion on this matter. There is also a wall of massive propaganda making it 10x harder to validate information. When people talk about modern Russia or China they are talking out their asses and the conversation devolves into shit-flinging. So I shut it down in my very first response. It’s a start of a bad-faith conversation at least 90% of the time. I’m not saying you would be in the 90%, just that I’m opting out of that part of the convo.
I’m talking about it from a ideology point of view. The truth is that the hatred did most likely lead them into their opinions and may be the real reason they adopted these viewpoints. However, from the standpoint of “Why are Nazi’s wrong?” it is this biggest issue with their ideology. As to “Conservative values are based on using power in any way to achieve their goal; If you think that their contradictory, scapegoating, culture wars make no sense, its because you aren’t looking at it simply enough. they lie and get what they want each step of the way.”. Again we are talking about them from an ideology standpoint, the reason they claim to do what they do. To argue them on a different basis, I believe, is a bad faith argument. The only thing I believe I can do is, debate them at what they say and hold them to what they say. Because there may be republicans that hold there beliefs honestly and it would be unjust for me to label them as Nazis.
As to “conservative lies” about communism and socialism, I do not know what you are specifically talking about (The only conservative speaker I have listened to was Ben Shapiro. I didn’t listen to much of him as it seems he is only interested in parroting the opinions of his constituents in a way that sounds smart rather than thinking for himself). I know that both capitalism and socialism have both failed under certain circumstances (biggest examples are modern america and the USSR), and both had pros and cons. I see from an ethics viewpoint that socialism has a better grounding. I believe in unions and workers standing up for themselves. However government involvement has had a history of failures and a socialist system is something that would need to be implemented very careful or may be impossible. I will note that I have not been able to find many sources that honestly cover the topic in good faith (IE anything other than CAPITALISM SUCKS or SOCIALISM SUCKS!) that I have a very weak ground to stand on when talking about the topic. Because of this, I still see my opinions as developing in this area.
I think i misunderstood you. I assumed you were acting in bad faith. Your grammar is making this a bit more difficult(mine eyes doth protest).
I’m trying to argue in good faith but will admit i assumed you weren’t from previous experiences and half-assed things.
The Nazi ideology to me, is the same as the conservative ideology, and both are simply reduced to tribalism/totalitarianism. Nazi/conservative values are just the truth of ANYTHING for the sake of gaining and maintaining power for the self first, then the tribe(as a means for more self power). The rest is a cover.
If you would like to single out anything we can swap to discussing that so i can show you what i mean. Originally i was talking about you going into minutia about generalising Jews, but the dislike for them was always just fabricated. Generalising or not makes no real difference, same with labeling your enemies as some simple thing you don like to delegitimise them. It’s standard conservative practice to use words in reduced good/bad form. For example, when a conservative talks, they can use socialist, communist, liberal, fascist to describe the same person in the same conversation. The conservative means “I don’t like you” but calls you a name, not realising they have no idea what it means, and you may know it properly and be annoyed with its misuse.
My final point was based around the standard opinions being the conservative lies. How you mentioned soviets as an example of socialism is a standard misunderstanding. They got co-opted the same way Nazis originally did. Both had some socialists attracted and in both cases they seemed to have been purged in favour of the totalitarians.
I’m going out for an hour and wanted to reply, but felt this reply should be deleted as it’s pretty meh. I sent the reply either way thinking you’d prefer one, sorry for the mess.
As for my grammar: Sometimes I have trouble putting my thoughts on paper. I half blame it on being “noschooled” where I was given a lot less writing assignments (I will note that it wasn’t all bad, as I channeled all that time into programming and computers. Thus making me better in my field than my peers. I think it has pros and cons, I plan to better explain my thoughts in a later comment). I also heavily use autocomplete. However I’m normally a better writer if I give myself time to review my work (I have gone through and made multiple edits on my comments). The other half I blame on me rushing to explain my ideas. I’m not used to the forum format and I was rushing myself before the post became irrelevant. I plan to take more time in the future when commenting on forums regardless of whether my comment becomes irrelevant. As I now see that harm it causes, and how I appear to others.
As to Nazis using their ideology as a cover. It is fully plausible and I do not have any retorts to that statement.
I have a habit of avoiding good/bad words such as Nazi/Woke/Socalist/Etc unless I can prove your arguments line up. I find that most people will shutdown around these words. Most republicans I speak with will ignore everything you have to say, if they hear a phrase like “Republicans are Nazis”. It’s also why it is so hard to talk with them.
A lot of the reason why they see opposing viewpoints automatically in a negative light, I believe is due to them only ever hearing the “Republicans are Nazis” part. I have never heard the reasoning why, people thought this (outside of REPUBLICAN BAD!). I (and I assume many republicans, as I never hear them talking about this point. Family or on the internet) will ever hear anything like what you have explained to me on the matter.
I still think it is wise to not address republicans as Nazis, as this often rings as a generalization that causes the conversation to be unproductive. I still think it is best to address their beliefs on their own merit; as I believe the best way to expose an idiot, is to explain how they are an idiot in a calm manner. Only describing the nature of Nazism and how it effects their voter base, emphasizing that not all republicans are necessarily Nazis. However, I have both learned from your comment and realized how I was not following my own beliefs in fear of being ignored. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
Quick note: I’m tired right now (12:30am atm) and I just wanted to update the conversation as to not leave it at that. I will go over this post and fix any issues and expand on it tomorrow when I am properly rested.
As for my grammar: Sometimes I have trouble putting my thoughts on paper. I half blame it on being “noschooled” where I was given a lot less writing assignments (I will note that it wasn’t all bad, as I channeled all that time into programming and computers. Thus making me better in my field than my peers. I think it has pros and cons, I plan to better explain my thoughts in a later comment). I also heavily use autocomplete. However I’m normally a better writer if I give myself time to review my work (I have gone through and made multiple edits on my comments). The other half I blame on me rushing to explain my ideas. I’m not used to the forum format and I was rushing myself before the post became irrelevant. I plan to take more time in the future when commenting on forums regardless of whether my comment becomes irrelevant. As I now see that harm it causes, and how I appear to others.
Thanks for the effort, It’s hard to put text down how we want, which is why I wanted to delete my last comment and rewrite it later haha. I was a bit the same and am learning as I go too. :) As long as you have paragraphs and the ideas come out how you want them then I’m happy.
As to Nazis using their ideology as a cover. It is fully plausible and I do not have any retorts to that statement.
I used to hear people from your POV before, and thought they were exaggerating, but the more I thought about it, the more I will noticed it’s not hyperbolic.
I have a habit of avoiding good/bad words such as Nazi/Woke/Socalist/Etc unless I can prove your arguments line up. I find that most people will shutdown around these words. Most republicans I speak with will ignore everything you have to say, if they hear a phrase like “Republicans are Nazis”. It’s also why it is so hard to talk with them.
I completely agree. I’ve had some scary experiences, easily breaking through conservatives defences, if I just use neutral language. The downside is that skilled people can make fast progress if they explain and agree on terminology, which on the internet is probably best avoided most of the time.
I still think it is wise to not address republicans as Nazis, as this often rings as a generalization that causes the conversation to be unproductive. I still think it is best to address their beliefs on their own merit; as I believe the best way to expose an idiot, is to explain how they are an idiot in a calm manner. Only describing the nature of Nazism and how it effects their voter base, emphasizing that not all republicans are necessarily Nazis. However, I have both learned from your comment and realized how I was not following my own beliefs in fear of being ignored. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
You are wiser than I am lol. I know it leads to nothing of value, but feel it needs to be associated as hard as we can, as most of their actions are based on conformity and Pavlovian conditioning(they do the inverse to an enemy I guess. I should stop).
The problem with the latter half of your paragraph, is that most conservatives don’t really believe what they say. They conform to their tribal values. It’s partly due to them having a bad foundation, leading to any thoughts ending in cognitive dissonance, then frustration, then anger, then either changing subjects or abuse.
Underneath the average conservative is an insecure, submissive, desperate for attention person that needs a better tribe to defect to, and the best way to win one, is to invite them to a friendly group of anti-conservatives. Some stealth might be required.
Conservatives tend to learn through direct actions, not rational discussion, so talking with them is only beneficial when dealing with an audience unless you know specific tactics.
Nighty night, thanks for the chat.
note: Most of what I say, such as “conservatives” is meant to be a generalisation and not an absolute thing for all. Sometimes I will clear it up and sometimes not. Sometimes I don’t even know I did it. I try to use “-ism” terminology to talk about the actual ideology.
After reading more of the comments, I think we may be at a mis-understanding. I believe that many people mean to say that the republican party appears to be voting in a similar manner to that of Nazi’s and as such should receive zero support. Not that everyone who votes republican is necessarily a Nazi. The argument however is the the republican voter base may be mis-guided, or down right dum, but are not necessarily Nazis.
Bro they are literally calling to exterminate liberals, LGBT and trans people. If you really want to wait until that jackboot is crushing your windpipe so you can smugly whisper “both sides” with your final breath, that’s your deal. I will call a spade a spade.
Some of them are. And screw them. however I know many republicans who would froth at the teeth about such people. Calling such people Nazis is counter productive and only inflames the current issues at hand. I think it is better to say: “There are some republicans who are calling to exterminate LGBTQ+ people, and hold values such as Nazism or white Supremacism. These people are incredibly dangerous, are a blight on our nation, and should be fought against as vigorously as we can. Republicans, Democrats, Capitalists, Socialists, we can and should agree on one fact: FUCK THEM, and FUCK anyone willing to threaten someone else on the mere basis that they are different”. Because it is that line of reasoning why I hear my republican parents saying “The woke media is coming after us and unjustly call us nazis.” and why nothing is done to fix the actual problem, just finger pointing and “bold” political speeches.
Edited to remove typo.
Calling such people Nazis is counter productive and only inflames the current issues at hand.
If they talk like a Nazi, act like a Nazi, or sympathize with Nazis, I’m gonna call them a Nazi. There’s no room to be tolerant here, Nazis have zero place in our society. And those that are Nazis are right wing and hide within the Republican party. That doesn’t make them any less of a Nazi, and we should call them out on it.
Before you read. I made an edit to this post. Because I think editing your posts to cover up your mistakes is a wimp way to handle things: I revised the section like this: [“old text” -> “new text”]. START: They do not talk like a Nazi: they rarely include rhetoric such as how they hate other races (unless they are already a Nazi). They do not act like a Nazi: Most republicans (regardless of what twitter says) do not go around burning people, or calling others beneath them. They do not sympathize with Nazis: The root of all Nazist beliefs is that races are incapable of cooperation. Most republicans believe in a [“strong constitution, and family values.” -> “strong constitution, family values and freedom. They however do not include the belief that races must be against each other”] The reason why many Nazis vote republican is because republicans are as close as Nazis are going to get. However they are two very different ideologies with very different thought processes. Call a spade a spade, a Nazi a Nazi, and a Republican a republican. If you hate their ideas, than let your voice be heard. I will be the first to wine about republican policies. However, whatever you do. Do not stoop so far as to fall back to labeling and name calling like middle-schoolers. Who don’t know enough to engage in actual thought. And to assume that all republicans are nazis, is a bad faith argument and will leave you ignored.
Edit: Removed a swear word before “middle-schoolers” as I said it out of frustration and after cooling down, I believe it detracts from the current conversation.
Where did I say that all Republicans are Nazis? Look closely, I said no such thing. I am saying that Nazis hide in the Republican ranks. There are openly white supremacist factions within the Republican Party (i.e. “Christian Identitarians”) that hide behind a veneer of civility. These groups have far greater influence in the Republican Party than ideological extremists on the left have with the Democratic Party.
We both agree on the fact that there are Nazis within the republican party, and I believe we both agree on the dangers associated with that. The mere goal of my argument was such: “Not all republicans are Nazis, therefore we should be careful with how we address them. We should avoid dismissing them on the mere basis that some may be bad actors and instead engage in a different line of reasoning.”
The portion you quoted, “Calling such people Nazis is counter productive and only inflames the current issues at hand.”, had some very important context. “Such people” in this case, was referring only to the portion of republicans who were not bad actors and were voting in good faith.
I’m making a second comment because I believe I have a better way of putting this. We both accept that there is a certain % of republicans that are Nazis. I am merely making the argument that there is a % of republicans who are not. We should not condemn the % of not Nazis just because a certain % of the republican party is made up of Nazis. If you disagree on this basis or I am mis-understanding you, please respond as I would like to know more.
Why then is extremist, explicitly Nazi rhetoric so pervasive within the Republican ranks? A good example of this is the United The Right rally in Charlottesville. The Nazis present were not condemned by the leader of the Republican party at that time when it would be the easiest thing for him to do. This tacit implicit support emboldens them for future action. Any sensible President would have denounced Nazis and their actions, especially as a woman was killed as a result of their actions.
I believe the phrase “Why then is extremist, explicitly Nazi rhetoric so pervasive within the Republican ranks?” is a far more complex phrase than you leave it to be. For one, we lack any objective way to gauge the overall opinions. All methods of gauging this (to my current knowledge) at all, have inherent issues.
The methods I know of are: Personal Experience, Media Coverage, Questionnaire studies, and the opinions of the leaders. Personal experience has to many unrelated variables at play. Were do you live? Who do you talk to? What are the people you talk with willing to talk to you about?
Media coverage can be extremely biased as it is often times more profitable to focus on the number of eyes that you get, versus the accuracy of your information. Media coverage is also not focused on representing society. It makes more sense to report on a single important incident, than it is to report 100 quiet days were nothing happened.
Questionnaires would normally be a good method and it normally would be. However, there are a lot of variables at play. How was the data gathered, is it peer reviewed, what measures were taken to prevent the inherent biases (either from the researchers, or by the nature of the current method studying), what is the sample size? This would be the best way to categorize the party as a whole, should the correct measures be taken. I have a had a lot of trouble finding solid studies that strayed away from this, as the current landscape of political questionnaires and studies are full of studies containing these flaws. Note: If you have found a good study that takes the necessary precautions, I would be grateful if you shared it. I should also note, that I’m not exactly a professional fact checker and I do not know all the best ways to find these studies.
The opinions of the leaders of a given party can also be a great way to gauge. However this necessitates that all members of the party agree with their current leader. Not all republicans want to vote for trump, or may not be paying enough attention to be knowledgeable about him (As much as we argue and it does in fact matter who you vote for. America seems to have grown a sub culture of people who are mostly dis-interested in politics. My belief is that it is most likely either people who do not care about politics, or people that trust their overall government and fellow man enough to make the decisions for him in such matters).
Another thing is that there are many “sub-parties”, if you will, under republicans. I have seen traditionalist republicans argue with libertarian republicans. I have seen republicans who refuse to budge an inch on guns, debate republicans who believe gun control is necessary. I have seen republicans who hate the war on drugs, debate republicans who think alcohol should be banned. I believe the reason that we see a more unified message among-st the republican party is due to the general state of politics in america.
I believe the biggest reason for this unification in message; is because the transition of politicians to more of a focus on careers, rather than directly fighting for what you believe in. A great example is how most republican candidates have tried to get endorsements from trump, because they new he was popular and it would help there image. Lobbying is a huge industry at the moment, encouraging both republicans and democrats to vote differently.
I believe the second biggest reason is need for traction to get started. To win an election you need votes, to get votes you need money, to get money you need a source to get money from. If you’re rich, great! You’ll be among the few who get a chance to risk throwing money away for the hope of maybe making this country better. If you’re not a wealthy person (who as a population, appear to be less concerned with politics and more concerned with business.), than you can try to start small and try to talk to everyone to get them to spread your name. This can be a very slow process and also carries with it the risk of failure, as you may be a liability to future employers and you might be seen as evil by some. The final option is to pander. Try to get other political candidates to endorse you, and build connections. The downside is that you have to not only worry about what is best for the country/state/city, you now have to worry about how it will look to everyone else if you openly fight against the very people who built your political career.
Why do people who disagree with their party just vote for another party like the green party. The most common message that I hear is this: Voting for someone does nothing if they will never be elected. Most other parties are almost completely ignored. Thus my best option is to vote for the politicians closest to my beliefs, from the bigger republican party.
The current state of republican politics also makes it difficult to describe them through a study. Because of the sub-factions that exist, who may disagree heavily republican voting as a whole. Such people who would only vote for someone they believe is making the party a better party. This means that even if there is an over 50% population of republicans who are Nazis: there may still be “sub-parties” who act almost in-dependently from the republican party, excluding only the title of republican.
This is why I, and many republicans that I know, will agree with you that there is a dangerous group of Nazis within the republican party. There will be a dis-agreement as to how bad the situation is, but this the threat of Nazis is a commonly known fact. I think the use of this fact as a counterpoint to all republicans beliefs, has made many republicans afraid to say or admit how bad the situation is (out of fear that you will completely ignore any points they have to make. especially if they are one of these sub-parites). I also know republicans who refuse to vote for Donald Trump because of his handling of the Charlottesville incident, among other things.
I merely believe it to be more constructive to encourage republicans to look for the evils in there own party, just as democrats should within their own as well. While also trying to break down the adversarial nature of modern politics, as many people on both sides have a bad habit of shutting down when confronted, and encouraging collaborative political discussion.
P.S.
there are some errors in gammar and spelling I have to hop off now and I plan to fix them tomorrow.
Some of the language I used did not meet the standard that I am asking for from the final paragraph. As much as I hate to admit it, most of my other comments here were made while I was triggered. One of the few things that I hate this much about modern politics, has to be the over generalization and dismal of political beliefs made with arguments that do not actually question the policies or specific politicians. This is not an excuse for the way I went about commenting, and I want to condemn the way I spoke earlier. I only leave those comments up because I believe others have a right to see how the conversation got to this point, and how I have handled myself in the past.
Historians have a word for people who joined the Nazi party, openly associated with Nazis and flew the Nazi flag because of economic anxiety, misplaced politics or simple ignorance.
Nazi. The word is Nazi.
If these people do not like what the party currently stands for, then it is incredibly easy to simply not associate with them.
Again, both sides have egg on their face. Democrats will throw up a bunch of nothing burger laws that either do nothing to solve issues (like gun laws that anyone with any knowledge of firearms knows will be circumvented with ease, assuming that throwing money at the welfare system will solve issues with how it is often handled corruptly or can have unforeseen consequences), or they will commit crimes (see Joe Biden). The current state of politics is everyone is evil, people have just decided to vote for who the think is the lesser of two evils. Also I think this may be a difference in experience, as most of the republicans I have met are very much against Nazism. Such is the difficulty with generalizations, who’s right? WHO KNOWS! All we know is that we hate the other guy.
Which republican candidate? And I don’t wanna be the “SoUrCe!” guy. But anyone can make up some BS, I even almost fell into that hole myself. I ask as I don’t recall any major republican openly saying this or pushing for a bill that would effectively do this. And even if there is a republican politician that is open about this, I would wonder what there traction was with the rest of the party. Because anyone can call themselves a republican, we would need to prove that such an individual has had enough backing as to be able to represent the rest of the party before we could make a generalization.
No, I don’t hate the other guy. I have 30 years worth of experience dealing with well meaning conservatives. I hate Nazis. I can tell the difference. If you can’t because the issue is too close to home, again, that is on you.
Key word “well meaning conservatives” my argument is that we should not label said conservatives as Nazis or their group as Nazis because that’s not what their about. They may have Nazis in their party, and Nazis may be encouraging certain policies. However it is bad faith to call them Nazis. As with the 30 years of experience, that’s fair. I have a relatively short knowledge on modern politics. With how almost all media is biased one way or the other, my young age, and my lack of time due to college: many of my opinions I still consider a work in progress and I’m still researching them out. Most debates I have are about what I see in front of me at the moment. What I see in front of me is well meaning republicans who ignore me when I disagree with them, because I’m a woke liberal who is going to call them a Nazi (even when we agree). I just want people to stop labeling because it just leads to more hatred when we should be able to talk it out like adults.
One other note I wanted to make about republicans and democrats that may be more relevant. Because of how america has incidentally become a two party system, often times people may vote for parties they don’t wholly agree with. It would be different to make comments about conservatives, libertarians, communists, and the like. However you are making general statements about parties that have wildly different viewpoints within their own party. Just look at Bernie versus Biden. These voter basis have to be so broad because most other parties have virtually no effect on how the U.S. government is run, most voters have to vote for a party they might heavily disagree with. I’ve met republicans who hold many “democrat” opinions, but vote republican because the democrat party has a history of being anti gun. Leave generalizations of large groups to Nazis and white supremacists.
The very fact that Manchin/Bernie and McCain/MTG share parties shows the two party system is an issue. Calling every democrat a commie and every Republican a Nazi is retarded.
I still don’t understand how so many people equate the party that supports free speech with the Nazis, and equate the party that wants to disarm the poor with the freedom fighters.
Yeah, right, “free speech,” unless you write a book with two guys kissing, then it must be banned from schools. Or tear up a photo on TV. Or protest wars in the Middle East. Or kneel during the national anthem. They are all for Cancel Culture and silencing people who speak out against them and their ideas.
The only time conservatives actually get up in arms about “free speech,” which they don’t actually know what it even is, is when they get banned on Twitter for spewing lies and hate. So get out of here with your “supports free speech” nonsense.
Cancel culture has nothing to do with free speech. One is people deciding not to support a company. The other is the government threatening to steal more of a companies money if that company doesn’t silence a person.
To be devils advocate here. It still does not impeach on free speech. You are still capable of sharing your ideas to others. The only reason they leave it as an exception is because they believe it to be sexual in nature, as most republicans just assume the homosexuality is always sexual. Is it a bad take. Yes. However I wouldn’t want my children being handed novels of straight people having sex either. The point against republicans is that the presence homosexual relationships, does not necessitate sexual behavior. It is not free speech that is the issue with their opinion. I will note that there are some better examples were some republicans have been anti free speech (cough bud light…). I think it has less to do with republicanism, and more about our political system as a whole. I see both sides just get mad about whatever is “against” them. I have seen both sides to do evil and ignore there own values temporarily (I think someone coined a term for this kind of thing, I think it was “double think”?). I think it is important to encourage people to think, and to not let their political candidates define them, like it’s a football game or a dystopian novel.
Definitely curious how the party actively working to ban books and prevent people from expressing themselves artistically in public is supporting free speech.
@NewEnglandRedshirt@danialbehzadi
Republicans and Democrats are the same. If Republicans are the Nazis at home, Democrats are funding the Nazis abroad.
Is there any “Memes” community that doesn’t post shit like this? We non Americans don’t care about this, we just want some fun memes and not being forcefed your culture war crap.
Internet culture for certain will be affected by the cultures of member’s nation. Here in this community we (assuming)have many people around the globe so it easy to see we have americans too. Not all memes will be understood or found hilarious by everyone but you just cant say “shit”.
Remember, the American Nazi party had a ridiculous amount of traction. Enough to fill Madison Square Garden for Washington’s birthday. Those people didn’t just vanish after WWII. They didn’t denounce their beliefs. They just crawled into the cracks like cockroaches.
Also the Nazis took example with the pledge of allegiance as an effective tool for indoctrination of school children. In the US it also used to be done with the same gesture that is now the Nazi salute.
Furthermore eugenics and race theory were prominent as “sciences” in the US and the Nazis also took example there. If it wasnt for the alliance to the Japanese and Pearl Harbor, the US might well have been on the Nazis side of history, given that the social and ideological culture had many more similarities than disagreements.
Don’t forget, however, that it was not the “right” in the US that was pro eugenics. It was the left and the Fabien socialists. Also didn’t forget, how those were the groups that were aligning themselves with the KKK.
While your comment about the Nazis getting a lot of their eugenics ideas from America in the 20’s-30’s is accurate, there’s no way in hell that we’d have just accidentally ended up in the Axis powers like that.
Were there Nazis in the US? Absolutely. Was their ideology common and/or the majority? Not at all.
We were literally allied with countries that the Nazis were attacking, and assisting them with supplies long before we ever entered the war due to Pearl Harbor. That’s before we even get into things like the Zimmerman note which indicated that the Germans in WW1 wanted to engage us as an enemy, which doesn’t bode well for their actions against those same allies 20 years later.
You’re taking the fact that eugenics existed here in the US and making up a metric fuck ton of revisionist history surrounding it.
You say all that, but remember the time Prescott Bush was part of a group of rich and powerful men that tried to overthrow FDR and install a fascist government?
As long as FDR was in office, there was literally no way the US would have joined Germany. It wasn’t a matter of if, but a matter of when the USA got involved. The us was in by proxy before 41/42, Doing the same stuff the modern US has done for Ukraine, but for the Commonwealth nations.
The raised-arm salute isn’t inherently bad, it’s bad now because the Nazis did it. And so, America using a similar salute before the Nazis doesn’t mean America was as evil as the Nazis.
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Please have some respect; nazis are nowhere near as bad as Microsoft
As a commie linux user I fight nazi and microsoft
But not china or Russia?
China is socialist and Russia is historically the anti-imperialist communist power. You wanted to spread your vile Anglo bullshit but are now unsuccessful.
Not aligning with the United States does not socialism nor anti-imperialism make
What is anglo?
China is not socialist mate, it’s technically a market economy with “chinese characteristics” and is run by one massive coalition. there’s private property ownership in China, there is stock exchange for example.
Its funny how you just wiped off “socialist” from the term used to describe mainland – market socialist economy with Chinese characteristics. Screaming about the miniscule existence of private property or stock exchange is a delusional and dishonest way to portray China as not being socialist. Their socialism comes from prosperity of over a billion people on their land, and prosperity of rest of the world via cheap manufactured goods that increase purchasing power of literally every person on earth that is not a rich capitalist pig.
You can scratch your neckbeard all you want, it’s very much a market economy. Whether there’s the term socialist or not
Too bad its not about being a neckbeard, its about not being delusional and not spreading delusion to cope with some ADV China tier bullshit.
Lmao, ask Hungary how “anti imperial” the USSR was
Yeah, Hungary (Austria-Hungary), one of the 8 Nation Alliance powers?
That was disrespectful, literally no one in Hungary thinks positively of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and the oppression of the Habsburg Empire. It was not a coincidence that in 1918 the monarchy was overthrown by revolution and replaced with a people’s republic then with a soviet republic in 1919.
I am Hungarian, and it would have made more sense to bring up any other post-socialist country instead. One of the most popular historical leaders of Hungary is János Kádár, who was the one who requested help from the Soviet Union in 1956 after Imre Nagy announced that he would withdraw from the Warsaw Pact.
Also, at the second parliamentary election after the socialist era, MSZP (one of the successor parties of the Hungarian Socialist Workers’ Party, alongside the Hungarian Workers’ Party) campaigned on the promise of democratically restoring all the “good things” (they put it this way) from socialism, which immediately won them all the parliamentary seats that could be won by one party in 1994. Of course, the MSZP did not keep any of their campaign promises and implemented more neoliberal policies with strong austerity (the infamous Bokros package). The then-prime minister, Gyula Horn, also made explicitly anti-strike statements. As a result, there was a significant chance that the still-Marxist Hungarian Workers’ Party would enter parliament in the 1998 parliamentary election. Therefore, the parliamentary parties voted to raise the electoral threshold in common agreement, so that this could not happen.
TLDR: In Hungary, the assessment of the socialist era is not as black and white as many people think.
Fighting China is like fighting a lost fight.
Russia is currently destroying itself,no help needed.
But what about your Komerades?
Before the current Ukraine war people would have said fighting Russia would be a lost fight, but we’ve learned a lot since then about what their readiness actually looks like. This makes me wonder if China is all that tough, or if they just talk a good game.
Nazis > Microsoft > Spectrum Internet > Nestle
Nestle > republicans
GGOS, KissOS, Atlus are a refreshing alternative
Agreed. Microsoft is bad to the point to where I switched to Arch Linux. They ain’t getting my data now!
Thanks for telling us. You are legally obligated to inform us that you use Arch btw.
Bold of you to assume that I don’t already do that. :)
Neither are you
Hehehehehe
Jokes on you, I have all my data
Jokes on you, I don’t have any data
Have you considered people are moving further right because your labeling them as such?
That’s the saddest, softest, snowflake excuse you could use.
It’s because you call us rapists we just have to do all that rapin’. Dontcha know.
The dumbest excuse.
I’m sorry but fried chicken isn’t racist, it’s just fried chicken.
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
Exactly it is exactly how you sound, conservative does not equal Nazi or fascist. Actual Nazis don’t believe in freedom of speech and would murder you without giving you a chance to criticise.
People are hurting and the right is blaming people (because that’s what the right always does), and people are eating it up. I’ve got a bunch of friends that are currently drinking the hate-machine cool-aid, but when I ask them questions to explain why they hold those views, they just simply can’t answer - propaganda works.
For example, a good friend of mine last week said in a car full of people he wished everyone in California died of a massive nuclear blast and he would throw a party on the news of their millions of deaths. I called him out about it to explain why - he said the governor was fucking everything up. I asked for a specific detail, he couldn’t think of one other than yelling woke woke woke. I asked him what woke means, he said he doesn’t know but it’s bad - gays and rainbows and trans and something about he has to like it. Needless to point out that he is a victim of the hate machine (his kid came out as trans, and I asked if he wanted his kid to be mistreated, and of course he wants the best for his kid…)
People don’t form these opinions where they wish the death of millions of unknown people all on their own, and they usually get echo chambered into those extreme views first.
Yeah propaganda works just like how it has worked on you.
You don’t see me wishing for the deaths of everyone in some state because my news channel tells me the governor of that state is a bad guy - perhaps if you actually had something better to say we could discuss this topic
No one is immune from propaganda not even you.
Oh great, we’re doing political feel-good posting on this site too? Such low hanging fruit.
Well then take the first shot and start the war… Otherwise it’ll just be drama memes for LIFE.
The war is inevitable… The sooner it starts the sooner it’s over. Neighbors, family, cops, thugs, there’s no knowing who the enemy is. It’s everyone vs everyone…
I see no point in furthing my personal life and goals until something real is done.
There’s definitely a discussion to be had for how the very far right (people whose core political ideology is based in racial prejudice and literal palingenetic ultranationalism) latch onto the sole major conservative political party in the United States and how they, as a component voting block, are catered to, if not explicitly represented by, portions of that party, and even dog whistled to by the party as a whole. This post, though, comes across as straight liberal smugposting and is somewhere between completely useless and actively harmful.
Agree with almost everything except the useless or harmful part. It’s just a meme meant for a quick laugh, it’s not that serious.
If we want to be serious though, the Republican party has been going further and further right in the past couple of years. The meme is kind of expressing this in a way.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’ve never heard of Strom Thurmond?
Also, I would argue that memes like this are more designed for reddit style, low-effort upvote farming, than anything genuinely productive. This makes Lemmy worse and oversimplifies any conversation about American politics, with all of its complex and disparate, if nominally similar, but still competing ideologies, and how they shape its material composition and practical functioning. This all a fancy way of saying that the underlying sentiment of “Republicans are all Nazis and we don’t need to understand them further than that” attempts to trivialize a complex problem and a complex set of ideological beliefs and leverages that oversimplification as banal clickbait. And it makes those that consume it dumber for having done so, potentially.
It’s no different in function from any other form of demonising the outgroup. It’s slightly less bad than some because your political views can change, but it’s still a sign of politics gone wrong.
The past couple? 2016 was 7 years ago
Yeah, but like… That’s a couple years ago for my old ass. 😂
Tell me you only recently started paying attention to politics without telling me you only recently started paying attention to politics
The Republican party was in power when they beat the Confederate States though…? Dumb meme
Did you completely forget the part where the parties switched ideologies? Or did you have to forget that part?
removed by mod
How is Microsoft and Target rebrands when it literally still says Microsoft and Target?
I was thinking the same thing until I saw the punchline. Target and Microsoft were just fodder here.
The brand is the corporate iconography, typography, etc. Not necessarily the name.
Targets was a minor one but still a good update! The new logo is much more eye catching, the red is what you immediately notice first, whereas the old one your attention was divided between the name text and circular logo. The new logo is also much larger and uniform in colour making it easier to remember.
To be honest, a lot of Republicans are still very respectable. The republican platform is fucked up, but if you are talking to your neighbor, don’t make his party affliation equal to his personal belief. A Democrat doesn’t believe in everything in the Democrat’s platform either.
In that sense, insulting a party is not generally helpful for public discourse.
Ok I hate that you are beeing down voted. The downvote button is not the “I disagree” button, but more like a “this does not help the discussion” button. And your point was fair and your opinion. If you agree or not does not matter. That’s the point of a discussion for fucks sake.
Pls don’t get to that reddit point of downvoting. The downvote behavior was so nice here the first few weeks, after I joined, but got so much worse after the last very big reddit migration wave.
It’s sad isn’t it, how predictable people are.
I agree the original commenter doesn’t deserve to be downvoted. If you disagree then leave a comment. Mass downvoting will build an echo chamber a la reddit
Here’s a little snippet from the documentation of lemmy.ml and lemmy.world. I understand it as meaning that the downvote is actually there to express a negative opinion about something you don’t like.
Lemmy uses a voting system to sort post listings. On the left side of each post there are up and down arrows, which let you upvote or downvote it. You can upvote posts that you like so that more users will see them. Or downvote posts so that they are less likely to be seen. Each post receives a score which is the number of upvotes minus number of downvotes.
I think it would be better put as nonconstructive. It is this exact environment that fascism and other hateful ideologies, like to expand in. Where opinions are suppressed on the merit of, “their bad”, Instead of using the environment as a constructive place to display why that opinion is bad. Propaganda is most effective when all conversation is stopped.
I don’t give a shit about personal beliefs, I care about outcomes. Republicans’ desired outcomes actively hurt people I care about, so I can absolutely tell them to fuck off. Even if they don’t “believe in everything,” they are indifferent enough to let horrible things happen.
I think what is important is the accusations that you are making. Everyone (Nazis, Republicans, Democrats, Communists, etc) are people. They may be sick, decrepit, evil people, but they are people non the less and they still react like people. If you call a republican who hates Nazi’s a Nazi, they will ignore you thinking you to be an idiot incapable of even understanding the roots of their values. Why not just leave it at “A lot of republican policies have a grave harm to the american people. They impoverish the impoverished, enrich the rich, lead to countless avoidable deaths, and even though not intended to target LGBTQ+ people, they gravely effect these communities and their members. I think it is unwise to vote republican given their current methods of governance”. This will accurately describe the negatives of this party, you could go on to better explain the pitfalls of many of their policies, and you would do so in a way that a republican voter won’t go home and say “I ran into this crazy woke person who called me a Nazi for no reason. I don’t hate people because of who they love or who they are. I may vote “anti-LGBT” because I don’t think are children should be abused with books displaying sexual acts between men.” (Note in case you think I support that sentence, I hated writing it. I’m just quoting republicans that I’ve heard from, because I think it displays how they think). This would prevent the senseless “DEMOCRATS WOKE AND BAD” mentality that most republicans have, because a lot of democrats like to just label them, instead of engage in their thought processes and encourage them to grow as people. Their is a great quote that I try to live my life by “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle”.
It’s quite a tall order to be kind to those who want you and those you care about dead.
Oh you don’t give a shit about personal beliefs? You the kind who thinks a king is better than a democracy? Because democracy is all about personal beliefs, and convincing your fellow citizens of what you think is right.
What an insanely stupid read of my comment
To be fair your comment was entirely baseless and inaccurate.
If they’re respectable, why are they still voluntarily supporting such a fucked up platform?
You can’t have it both ways.
Best I can say, don’t make it so absolute. No one is perfect. Everyone has their share of sin. You are not an exception.
What kind of respectable people support a “fucked up” platform?
Democrats are not perfect, but if someone identifies as a Republican in 2023, there is something deeply wrong with their personal beliefs.
Dehumanizing your subject is easy. Republicans do that to people on the left too. Let’s just hate each other till we destroy each other. That’s gonna get a good society going.
One side says, “Kill em all”
The other says “Line those killers against the wall”
—Father John Misty
Actually try having a job with outspoken republicans and see just how tolerant of you they are. Once they find out im gay its game over and my job ends soon after.
How many times? Three.
Does this happen in call cebter jobs? No, because the people are all centrists. But in the manual labor jobs i love its republicans who keep me from my dream.
Oh yeah I had to work with a guy who just couldn’t stop running off his mouth about Trump and how evil Republicans were. Everyone else was pretty nice to work with but that guy was just cringy all the time.
Imagine a job with that guy above you in the heirarchy, and how he would notice all your little mistakes if you didnt agree with him.
That’s like half the USA
Fuck Republicans and fuck Democrats.
That’s the spirit.
Then where is the Republican outrage against the fascist policies so many Republican politicians are advocating for? There are only two options: either they don’t care, or they’re secretly happy.
Exactly anyone today that votes Republican or calls themselves one (my boss) yet continues to vote republican just because either don’t care or wants what they want.
If you are not in the republican circle, how do you even know how they perceive the policies?
… did you read the MLK quote I included? The fact that there aren’t many Republicans loudly and repeatedly condemning the leaders of the party says exactly that. If you want to read the whole thing, I recommend you take a look at King’s full Letter from a Birmingham Jail to fully understand the point: silence means acceptance.
You look at this thread, and you ask “where’s all the voices”. You don’t find that ironic?
Silence could mean acceptance, it doesn’t mean agreement. Just like being on the left if I say “let’s keep the discussion going” all you fuckers are gonna downvote me to oblivion and accuse me of less intelligent and make anyone who have a different idea an outcast, it is the same thing for republicans. Someone who don’t go with the flow is made an outcast, so if you don’t agree, tough luck.
Yeh, if the left treat its different opinions like this, what the fuck you think a republican having a different opinion is treated like? So if you are strongly for the core policies of your affiliated party, would you raise your voice? Or if you did, you think those voices get heard and get reported?
See, now, the 1920s and 1930s taught us that reasonable debate with fascists is impossible. So where are all the Republicans in the public sphere standing up for moderation? No offense to you, but you’re a rando on the internet (and so am I). Where are the politicians standing up to the far right?
You know even from liberal media that there is a moderate republican faction, and they are indeed getting hammered exactly by people just like you but from the right.
Where did you learn that? A reasonable debate with any extremism is impossible, it isn’t just fascism. Point is you can’t let an ideology slip into extremism to begin with. If you refuse to debate your position, that’s already a sign of extremism, and calling your counterpart fascist doesn’t really make yourself better.
Your comment implies that people take insult when someone calls them out for supporting a platform that - just to take one example - decides it’s proper to prosecute victims of crime because they also think the government should have jurisdiction over woman’s body and a say in their health and wellbeing.
Is them taking umbrage to valid crisis the real issue here?
In the argument you call out, wasn’t the republican side pushing the decision of abortion legality to state level, putting it more in the hands of the people?
Edit: should clarify, I’m unaffiliated, and just looking for answers.
It used to be up to the individual. The Republicans took it out of the hands of the people.
Is the Republicans platform not anti-abortion?
It is, and I don’t know how anyone could disagree with you on that.
We bash the Confederacy for using “states rights” to try and justify slavery. We should bash Republicans for using the same tactics.
Yeah they pushed it for state level and when they realized most people even in Republican states didn’t support the ban they went straight to trying to push it federally.
It’s all a grift for the sake of control and power. Acting like it’s anything less when the mask has been removed makes you complicit which is why I say fuck all republicans.
This belief depends entirely on the state. Other red states don’t give a shit. Kansas and Florida for example haven’t restricted it at all.
Not familiar with those states but after a quick search:
Florida has an an abortion plan that permits prosecution of a women as a third degree felony in some circumstances.
Kansas prohibits abortions after 22 weeks and “a woman who seeks an abortion will be given state-mandated propaganda designed to change her mind. She will then have to look at an ultrasound image, wait 24 hours and pay for the procedure out of her own pocket.”
“Not as bad” isn’t really a W.
Every country limits abortion to some extent. The UK limits it at 24 unless medically necessary. Denmark is at 12 weeks.
The US was unique in that you weren’t permitted to limit it at all due to the supreme court decision.
Some limitations are fine, imo.
Wrong again:
You support a platform for many different reasons. For example you really want small government, so what choice do you have? And how do you know that a republican definitely is a pro-lifer? And if he is a prolifer, how do you know he believes government should control woman? You can’t just paint them all as evil as you imagined. What you imagined is not your neighbor.
Perfectly illustrates my point. I didn’t paint them as evil, I just criticised them. Big difference, which you seem unable to draw.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying “I get you have ideological views, but supporting a party that hurts people to win culture wars is not something I am not cool with”. Branding that as insulting or hateful is just attempting to dodging accountability by disingenuously claiming victim status.
Party allegiance aside, it’s unreasonable and hypocritical for anyone to support a platform with an agenda that will directly and adversely impacts broad swathes of society with an expectation that they will not be directly or adversely impacted by their actions and decisions (which in this case is something as innocuous as simply drawing criticism).
Rebranding Nazism as Republicans is not painting them as evil?
I mean I understand as the discussion goes people often confuse themselves with what we are talking about, but the OP of the post is branding republicans as nazis, and nazis are people we don’t need to give any consideration to, these are people we should eliminate from the surface of the earth.
Hey you want to get things done you have to start somewhere. If you think your republican friends are better off getting a new party started, I guess you can start the conversation there.
But have a conversation, don’t just call them nazis.
…is the part of your argument I am responding to. Saying “don’t five people a hard time for supporting fucked up things” is pretty fucked up.
I’m going to quote someone else in the comment section. Fuck republican, Fuck democrats. You are dealing with to evil sides, of which everyone must choose the lesser of two evils.
Amen brother. Everyone should be prepared to be face criticism, because no one is altruistic and never will be if they can’t bear to be challenged about their beliefs.
So something being messed up doesn’t mean you can’t support it. Let’s not even talk about the party, you might believe this country is fucked up. Every country have people who believe their own country has a lot of problems. It doesn’t mean you don’t support it. You support it because, say, you rely on it to achieve your own ideal, or perhaps you just love what it used to be and you want it to be more successful, or whatever.
The platform isn’t a singular thing. I can totally see someone who’s in the party to support small government and having to endure the mess that is abortion and extreme gun rights.
Agree! Supporting your country =/= being complicit in all the bad shit done by or in the name of your country. That’s why activism exists, that’s why people can and will protest.
So how come this same logic doesn’t apply if the protests and activism is being directed at your republican neighbour?
Oof. 🤭
Before you read. I made this comment while triggered and rushing. I do not believe that this comment holds the tone that I wanted to coney and I believe that it is poorly written. I leave it up, as I believe it would be a bit of a cop out to delete my comment, I also believe that some of the discourse below is productive and representative of my beliefs. I made a better version of my thoughts here: https://pawb.social/comment/926750.
ah yes. The old tradition of calling you political opponents nazis or communists, or liberals. Wasn’t this the worst part of nazism (ideologically speaking)? Instead of looking at the context, they defaulted to calling all jews spies. Or instead of looking at the struggles that come with integrating different societies and the benefits that come along with that, they just assumed that different races are fundementally incapable of cooperating? Or they saw everyone that didn’t agree with them as fundimentally evil, instead of understanding that there is at least a hint of truth in most phylosphies/political beliefs that they can learn from even if the belief is one that could be considered evil. A great example is abortion: on one hand, you’re litterally erasing the heart beat of another living being before their first breaths. On the other hand, I remember hearing of a 14 year old girl in my area who got pregnant, and you know that baby is done for… especially with the mismnaged mess that is american welfare. I absolutely disagree with many republican beliefs and idioligies, I hate the culture war BS that they petal. I hate watching them wine about cancel culture, and then they cancel a beer company because they gave a single free beer can to a trans woman. I get it, but messages like this only make them think you’re crazy because the idiologies of modern republicans do differ from nazism, maybe for some republicans more than others. But this isn’t helping; because if there is one thing nazism and white supremism feeds off the most… Its the “evil others”.
tldr; there are some differences between nazis and modern republicans (many of these characteristics are better in republicans), and trying to paint them otherwise is just asking for trouble. Acuse others only of what they are guilty.
I made on edit for clarity. I made a second edit because the quote “evil “others”” could technically be construed that I think that the others are in fact evil. I used that language to note how Nazis and white supremism will often assume that others are evil for the mere fact that they are the “others” and I wanted to better get my idea across that this is bad. I made a third edit: I add the (ideologically speaking) line after Wasn’t this the worst part of nazism?. I did this because others were thinking that I thought that was the most awful thing about nazism. The most awful part about nazism was the murdering and mistreatment of innocents. I meant to bring it up as this is the biggest flaw in their ideology. Most Nazis will just devolve into incoherent screaming when you bring up their error of generalizing groups of people.
“Wasn’t this the worst part of nazism?”
No, and this is disgusting. The worst part was disenfranchising jews, LGBTQI*-People, communists, disabled people, sinti&roma and others, locking them up under terible conditions and killing millions of them. Deliberatly killing millions of people to get rid of them.
It’s the root of why they did that. This one single flaw, is what caused them to commit those acts. There is a difference between proximal and root causes. Say my boat is sinking. The proximal issue is that the boat is sinking (the problem I want to fix), the root cause is that there is a hole in my boat (what is causing my problem). The proximal issue with Nazis is that they murder millions and committed horrible acts. The root cause why they did these things, was because they generalized these groups to the point that genocide seemed reasonable to themselves. Instead of looking at the contexts or considering that there are other morals at play.
The Nazis over-generalising Jews was secondary as a simple means to an end of removing a faction that disagrees with Nazis. The correct way to say it was that, to gain and maintain power, the conservatives scapegoated Jews, socialists, and dissidents, to help generate hatred and genocidal tendencies to ultimately overthrow democracy and remove threats to capitalist power. Jews, socialists, and dissidents in general were framed using any random words that sounded good and then killed off. Conservative values are based on using power in any way to achieve their goal; If you think that their contradictory, scapegoating, culture wars make no sense, its because you aren’t looking at it simply enough. they lie and get what they want each step of the way.
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you trust the conservative lies about what a communism and socialism is.
Wikipedia has a correct definition - Communism - Socialism
Calling the NAZIs conservatives doesn’t quite fit the history of Germany. Conservative is an ideology that depends on time and place. For example conservatives in Russia are pro-communism.
In the case of the NAZIs they were progressive nationalist socialists advocating for a “third way" that was not liberalism or communism, which is why they campaigned hard as anti-marxists and anti-capitalists. Anti-semitistm was of course a major part of this as well and part of the reason Jewish conspiracy theories seem to simultaneously be associated with both marxism and capitalism.
The key overlap between Fascism, Nazism , and conservatism is that they are all exactly the correct definition on recent conservatism which is best described by the following quote from Frank Wilhoit:
Conservative values in the modern sense is
taking power, while saying whatever the hell helps you take power. It applies perfectly to Nazis and Fascists historically.If you zoom in on Nazi actions, you see clearly they have the same style as modern conservatives. I hope you don’t misunderstand, I’m not calling Nazis conservatives, I’m calling conservatives NAZIS; And by that I mean the way they use power. ANYTHING to gain and maintain power, the rest is an illusion.
Nazis acted as standard capitalists. They busted unions, they worked alongside corporations without really controlling them in a bad way for them etc. We have tons of jokes about old Nazi companies like Hugo boss that just mysteriously got overlooked and thrived for some time after WW2. They never lost their identity or profits, they gained a lot. It’s the people that lost, as always. Fascist(as we call it today) actions are really just capitalist democracies, that throw away the illusion of democracy, more specifically, they can no longer maintain the illusion - see conservatism.
As for Russians, I’ve been saying this a lot but… I don’t speak Russian, I don’t speak Mandarin, Haven’t visited them, I haven’t done the levels of research needed for me to have an opinion on this matter. There is also a wall of massive propaganda making it 10x harder to validate information. When people talk about modern Russia or China they are talking out their asses and the conversation devolves into shit-flinging. So I shut it down in my very first response. It’s a start of a bad-faith conversation at least 90% of the time. I’m not saying you would be in the 90%, just that I’m opting out of that part of the convo.
I don’t really know how to respond to this other than to say your worldview is firmly grounded in ideology.
I’m talking about it from a ideology point of view. The truth is that the hatred did most likely lead them into their opinions and may be the real reason they adopted these viewpoints. However, from the standpoint of “Why are Nazi’s wrong?” it is this biggest issue with their ideology. As to “Conservative values are based on using power in any way to achieve their goal; If you think that their contradictory, scapegoating, culture wars make no sense, its because you aren’t looking at it simply enough. they lie and get what they want each step of the way.”. Again we are talking about them from an ideology standpoint, the reason they claim to do what they do. To argue them on a different basis, I believe, is a bad faith argument. The only thing I believe I can do is, debate them at what they say and hold them to what they say. Because there may be republicans that hold there beliefs honestly and it would be unjust for me to label them as Nazis. As to “conservative lies” about communism and socialism, I do not know what you are specifically talking about (The only conservative speaker I have listened to was Ben Shapiro. I didn’t listen to much of him as it seems he is only interested in parroting the opinions of his constituents in a way that sounds smart rather than thinking for himself). I know that both capitalism and socialism have both failed under certain circumstances (biggest examples are modern america and the USSR), and both had pros and cons. I see from an ethics viewpoint that socialism has a better grounding. I believe in unions and workers standing up for themselves. However government involvement has had a history of failures and a socialist system is something that would need to be implemented very careful or may be impossible. I will note that I have not been able to find many sources that honestly cover the topic in good faith (IE anything other than CAPITALISM SUCKS or SOCIALISM SUCKS!) that I have a very weak ground to stand on when talking about the topic. Because of this, I still see my opinions as developing in this area.
I think i misunderstood you. I assumed you were acting in bad faith. Your grammar is making this a bit more difficult(mine eyes doth protest).
I’m trying to argue in good faith but will admit i assumed you weren’t from previous experiences and half-assed things.
The Nazi ideology to me, is the same as the conservative ideology, and both are simply reduced to tribalism/totalitarianism. Nazi/conservative values are just the truth of ANYTHING for the sake of gaining and maintaining power for the self first, then the tribe(as a means for more self power). The rest is a cover.
If you would like to single out anything we can swap to discussing that so i can show you what i mean. Originally i was talking about you going into minutia about generalising Jews, but the dislike for them was always just fabricated. Generalising or not makes no real difference, same with labeling your enemies as some simple thing you don like to delegitimise them. It’s standard conservative practice to use words in reduced good/bad form. For example, when a conservative talks, they can use socialist, communist, liberal, fascist to describe the same person in the same conversation. The conservative means “I don’t like you” but calls you a name, not realising they have no idea what it means, and you may know it properly and be annoyed with its misuse.
My final point was based around the standard opinions being the conservative lies. How you mentioned soviets as an example of socialism is a standard misunderstanding. They got co-opted the same way Nazis originally did. Both had some socialists attracted and in both cases they seemed to have been purged in favour of the totalitarians.
I’m going out for an hour and wanted to reply, but felt this reply should be deleted as it’s pretty meh. I sent the reply either way thinking you’d prefer one, sorry for the mess.
Thank you for the reply.
As for my grammar: Sometimes I have trouble putting my thoughts on paper. I half blame it on being “noschooled” where I was given a lot less writing assignments (I will note that it wasn’t all bad, as I channeled all that time into programming and computers. Thus making me better in my field than my peers. I think it has pros and cons, I plan to better explain my thoughts in a later comment). I also heavily use autocomplete. However I’m normally a better writer if I give myself time to review my work (I have gone through and made multiple edits on my comments). The other half I blame on me rushing to explain my ideas. I’m not used to the forum format and I was rushing myself before the post became irrelevant. I plan to take more time in the future when commenting on forums regardless of whether my comment becomes irrelevant. As I now see that harm it causes, and how I appear to others.
As to Nazis using their ideology as a cover. It is fully plausible and I do not have any retorts to that statement.
I have a habit of avoiding good/bad words such as Nazi/Woke/Socalist/Etc unless I can prove your arguments line up. I find that most people will shutdown around these words. Most republicans I speak with will ignore everything you have to say, if they hear a phrase like “Republicans are Nazis”. It’s also why it is so hard to talk with them.
A lot of the reason why they see opposing viewpoints automatically in a negative light, I believe is due to them only ever hearing the “Republicans are Nazis” part. I have never heard the reasoning why, people thought this (outside of REPUBLICAN BAD!). I (and I assume many republicans, as I never hear them talking about this point. Family or on the internet) will ever hear anything like what you have explained to me on the matter.
I still think it is wise to not address republicans as Nazis, as this often rings as a generalization that causes the conversation to be unproductive. I still think it is best to address their beliefs on their own merit; as I believe the best way to expose an idiot, is to explain how they are an idiot in a calm manner. Only describing the nature of Nazism and how it effects their voter base, emphasizing that not all republicans are necessarily Nazis. However, I have both learned from your comment and realized how I was not following my own beliefs in fear of being ignored. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
Quick note: I’m tired right now (12:30am atm) and I just wanted to update the conversation as to not leave it at that. I will go over this post and fix any issues and expand on it tomorrow when I am properly rested.
Thanks for the effort, It’s hard to put text down how we want, which is why I wanted to delete my last comment and rewrite it later haha. I was a bit the same and am learning as I go too. :) As long as you have paragraphs and the ideas come out how you want them then I’m happy.
I used to hear people from your POV before, and thought they were exaggerating, but the more I thought about it, the more I will noticed it’s not hyperbolic.
I completely agree. I’ve had some scary experiences, easily breaking through conservatives defences, if I just use neutral language. The downside is that skilled people can make fast progress if they explain and agree on terminology, which on the internet is probably best avoided most of the time.
You are wiser than I am lol. I know it leads to nothing of value, but feel it needs to be associated as hard as we can, as most of their actions are based on conformity and Pavlovian conditioning(they do the inverse to an enemy I guess. I should stop).
The problem with the latter half of your paragraph, is that most conservatives don’t really believe what they say. They conform to their tribal values. It’s partly due to them having a bad foundation, leading to any thoughts ending in cognitive dissonance, then frustration, then anger, then either changing subjects or abuse.
Underneath the average conservative is an insecure, submissive, desperate for attention person that needs a better tribe to defect to, and the best way to win one, is to invite them to a friendly group of anti-conservatives. Some stealth might be required.
Conservatives tend to learn through direct actions, not rational discussion, so talking with them is only beneficial when dealing with an audience unless you know specific tactics.
Nighty night, thanks for the chat.
note: Most of what I say, such as “conservatives” is meant to be a generalisation and not an absolute thing for all. Sometimes I will clear it up and sometimes not. Sometimes I don’t even know I did it. I try to use “-ism” terminology to talk about the actual ideology.
After reading more of the comments, I think we may be at a mis-understanding. I believe that many people mean to say that the republican party appears to be voting in a similar manner to that of Nazi’s and as such should receive zero support. Not that everyone who votes republican is necessarily a Nazi. The argument however is the the republican voter base may be mis-guided, or down right dum, but are not necessarily Nazis.
Bro they are literally calling to exterminate liberals, LGBT and trans people. If you really want to wait until that jackboot is crushing your windpipe so you can smugly whisper “both sides” with your final breath, that’s your deal. I will call a spade a spade.
Some of them are. And screw them. however I know many republicans who would froth at the teeth about such people. Calling such people Nazis is counter productive and only inflames the current issues at hand. I think it is better to say: “There are some republicans who are calling to exterminate LGBTQ+ people, and hold values such as Nazism or white Supremacism. These people are incredibly dangerous, are a blight on our nation, and should be fought against as vigorously as we can. Republicans, Democrats, Capitalists, Socialists, we can and should agree on one fact: FUCK THEM, and FUCK anyone willing to threaten someone else on the mere basis that they are different”. Because it is that line of reasoning why I hear my republican parents saying “The woke media is coming after us and unjustly call us nazis.” and why nothing is done to fix the actual problem, just finger pointing and “bold” political speeches. Edited to remove typo.
If they talk like a Nazi, act like a Nazi, or sympathize with Nazis, I’m gonna call them a Nazi. There’s no room to be tolerant here, Nazis have zero place in our society. And those that are Nazis are right wing and hide within the Republican party. That doesn’t make them any less of a Nazi, and we should call them out on it.
Before you read. I made an edit to this post. Because I think editing your posts to cover up your mistakes is a wimp way to handle things: I revised the section like this: [“old text” -> “new text”]. START: They do not talk like a Nazi: they rarely include rhetoric such as how they hate other races (unless they are already a Nazi). They do not act like a Nazi: Most republicans (regardless of what twitter says) do not go around burning people, or calling others beneath them. They do not sympathize with Nazis: The root of all Nazist beliefs is that races are incapable of cooperation. Most republicans believe in a [“strong constitution, and family values.” -> “strong constitution, family values and freedom. They however do not include the belief that races must be against each other”] The reason why many Nazis vote republican is because republicans are as close as Nazis are going to get. However they are two very different ideologies with very different thought processes. Call a spade a spade, a Nazi a Nazi, and a Republican a republican. If you hate their ideas, than let your voice be heard. I will be the first to wine about republican policies. However, whatever you do. Do not stoop so far as to fall back to labeling and name calling like middle-schoolers. Who don’t know enough to engage in actual thought. And to assume that all republicans are nazis, is a bad faith argument and will leave you ignored.
Edit: Removed a swear word before “middle-schoolers” as I said it out of frustration and after cooling down, I believe it detracts from the current conversation.
Where did I say that all Republicans are Nazis? Look closely, I said no such thing. I am saying that Nazis hide in the Republican ranks. There are openly white supremacist factions within the Republican Party (i.e. “Christian Identitarians”) that hide behind a veneer of civility. These groups have far greater influence in the Republican Party than ideological extremists on the left have with the Democratic Party.
I apologize about the mis-understanding.
We both agree on the fact that there are Nazis within the republican party, and I believe we both agree on the dangers associated with that. The mere goal of my argument was such: “Not all republicans are Nazis, therefore we should be careful with how we address them. We should avoid dismissing them on the mere basis that some may be bad actors and instead engage in a different line of reasoning.”
The portion you quoted, “Calling such people Nazis is counter productive and only inflames the current issues at hand.”, had some very important context. “Such people” in this case, was referring only to the portion of republicans who were not bad actors and were voting in good faith.
I’m making a second comment because I believe I have a better way of putting this. We both accept that there is a certain % of republicans that are Nazis. I am merely making the argument that there is a % of republicans who are not. We should not condemn the % of not Nazis just because a certain % of the republican party is made up of Nazis. If you disagree on this basis or I am mis-understanding you, please respond as I would like to know more.
Why then is extremist, explicitly Nazi rhetoric so pervasive within the Republican ranks? A good example of this is the United The Right rally in Charlottesville. The Nazis present were not condemned by the leader of the Republican party at that time when it would be the easiest thing for him to do. This tacit implicit support emboldens them for future action. Any sensible President would have denounced Nazis and their actions, especially as a woman was killed as a result of their actions.
I believe the phrase “Why then is extremist, explicitly Nazi rhetoric so pervasive within the Republican ranks?” is a far more complex phrase than you leave it to be. For one, we lack any objective way to gauge the overall opinions. All methods of gauging this (to my current knowledge) at all, have inherent issues.
The methods I know of are: Personal Experience, Media Coverage, Questionnaire studies, and the opinions of the leaders. Personal experience has to many unrelated variables at play. Were do you live? Who do you talk to? What are the people you talk with willing to talk to you about?
Media coverage can be extremely biased as it is often times more profitable to focus on the number of eyes that you get, versus the accuracy of your information. Media coverage is also not focused on representing society. It makes more sense to report on a single important incident, than it is to report 100 quiet days were nothing happened.
Questionnaires would normally be a good method and it normally would be. However, there are a lot of variables at play. How was the data gathered, is it peer reviewed, what measures were taken to prevent the inherent biases (either from the researchers, or by the nature of the current method studying), what is the sample size? This would be the best way to categorize the party as a whole, should the correct measures be taken. I have a had a lot of trouble finding solid studies that strayed away from this, as the current landscape of political questionnaires and studies are full of studies containing these flaws. Note: If you have found a good study that takes the necessary precautions, I would be grateful if you shared it. I should also note, that I’m not exactly a professional fact checker and I do not know all the best ways to find these studies.
The opinions of the leaders of a given party can also be a great way to gauge. However this necessitates that all members of the party agree with their current leader. Not all republicans want to vote for trump, or may not be paying enough attention to be knowledgeable about him (As much as we argue and it does in fact matter who you vote for. America seems to have grown a sub culture of people who are mostly dis-interested in politics. My belief is that it is most likely either people who do not care about politics, or people that trust their overall government and fellow man enough to make the decisions for him in such matters).
Another thing is that there are many “sub-parties”, if you will, under republicans. I have seen traditionalist republicans argue with libertarian republicans. I have seen republicans who refuse to budge an inch on guns, debate republicans who believe gun control is necessary. I have seen republicans who hate the war on drugs, debate republicans who think alcohol should be banned. I believe the reason that we see a more unified message among-st the republican party is due to the general state of politics in america.
I believe the biggest reason for this unification in message; is because the transition of politicians to more of a focus on careers, rather than directly fighting for what you believe in. A great example is how most republican candidates have tried to get endorsements from trump, because they new he was popular and it would help there image. Lobbying is a huge industry at the moment, encouraging both republicans and democrats to vote differently.
I believe the second biggest reason is need for traction to get started. To win an election you need votes, to get votes you need money, to get money you need a source to get money from. If you’re rich, great! You’ll be among the few who get a chance to risk throwing money away for the hope of maybe making this country better. If you’re not a wealthy person (who as a population, appear to be less concerned with politics and more concerned with business.), than you can try to start small and try to talk to everyone to get them to spread your name. This can be a very slow process and also carries with it the risk of failure, as you may be a liability to future employers and you might be seen as evil by some. The final option is to pander. Try to get other political candidates to endorse you, and build connections. The downside is that you have to not only worry about what is best for the country/state/city, you now have to worry about how it will look to everyone else if you openly fight against the very people who built your political career.
Why do people who disagree with their party just vote for another party like the green party. The most common message that I hear is this: Voting for someone does nothing if they will never be elected. Most other parties are almost completely ignored. Thus my best option is to vote for the politicians closest to my beliefs, from the bigger republican party.
The current state of republican politics also makes it difficult to describe them through a study. Because of the sub-factions that exist, who may disagree heavily republican voting as a whole. Such people who would only vote for someone they believe is making the party a better party. This means that even if there is an over 50% population of republicans who are Nazis: there may still be “sub-parties” who act almost in-dependently from the republican party, excluding only the title of republican.
This is why I, and many republicans that I know, will agree with you that there is a dangerous group of Nazis within the republican party. There will be a dis-agreement as to how bad the situation is, but this the threat of Nazis is a commonly known fact. I think the use of this fact as a counterpoint to all republicans beliefs, has made many republicans afraid to say or admit how bad the situation is (out of fear that you will completely ignore any points they have to make. especially if they are one of these sub-parites). I also know republicans who refuse to vote for Donald Trump because of his handling of the Charlottesville incident, among other things.
I merely believe it to be more constructive to encourage republicans to look for the evils in there own party, just as democrats should within their own as well. While also trying to break down the adversarial nature of modern politics, as many people on both sides have a bad habit of shutting down when confronted, and encouraging collaborative political discussion.
P.S.
there are some errors in gammar and spelling I have to hop off now and I plan to fix them tomorrow.
Some of the language I used did not meet the standard that I am asking for from the final paragraph. As much as I hate to admit it, most of my other comments here were made while I was triggered. One of the few things that I hate this much about modern politics, has to be the over generalization and dismal of political beliefs made with arguments that do not actually question the policies or specific politicians. This is not an excuse for the way I went about commenting, and I want to condemn the way I spoke earlier. I only leave those comments up because I believe others have a right to see how the conversation got to this point, and how I have handled myself in the past.
Historians have a word for people who joined the Nazi party, openly associated with Nazis and flew the Nazi flag because of economic anxiety, misplaced politics or simple ignorance.
Nazi. The word is Nazi.
If these people do not like what the party currently stands for, then it is incredibly easy to simply not associate with them.
Again, both sides have egg on their face. Democrats will throw up a bunch of nothing burger laws that either do nothing to solve issues (like gun laws that anyone with any knowledge of firearms knows will be circumvented with ease, assuming that throwing money at the welfare system will solve issues with how it is often handled corruptly or can have unforeseen consequences), or they will commit crimes (see Joe Biden). The current state of politics is everyone is evil, people have just decided to vote for who the think is the lesser of two evils. Also I think this may be a difference in experience, as most of the republicans I have met are very much against Nazism. Such is the difficulty with generalizations, who’s right? WHO KNOWS! All we know is that we hate the other guy.
Dude, literally only one side is calling for the extermination of an entire group of people.
Which republican candidate? And I don’t wanna be the “SoUrCe!” guy. But anyone can make up some BS, I even almost fell into that hole myself. I ask as I don’t recall any major republican openly saying this or pushing for a bill that would effectively do this. And even if there is a republican politician that is open about this, I would wonder what there traction was with the rest of the party. Because anyone can call themselves a republican, we would need to prove that such an individual has had enough backing as to be able to represent the rest of the party before we could make a generalization.
No, I don’t hate the other guy. I have 30 years worth of experience dealing with well meaning conservatives. I hate Nazis. I can tell the difference. If you can’t because the issue is too close to home, again, that is on you.
Key word “well meaning conservatives” my argument is that we should not label said conservatives as Nazis or their group as Nazis because that’s not what their about. They may have Nazis in their party, and Nazis may be encouraging certain policies. However it is bad faith to call them Nazis. As with the 30 years of experience, that’s fair. I have a relatively short knowledge on modern politics. With how almost all media is biased one way or the other, my young age, and my lack of time due to college: many of my opinions I still consider a work in progress and I’m still researching them out. Most debates I have are about what I see in front of me at the moment. What I see in front of me is well meaning republicans who ignore me when I disagree with them, because I’m a woke liberal who is going to call them a Nazi (even when we agree). I just want people to stop labeling because it just leads to more hatred when we should be able to talk it out like adults.
One other note I wanted to make about republicans and democrats that may be more relevant. Because of how america has incidentally become a two party system, often times people may vote for parties they don’t wholly agree with. It would be different to make comments about conservatives, libertarians, communists, and the like. However you are making general statements about parties that have wildly different viewpoints within their own party. Just look at Bernie versus Biden. These voter basis have to be so broad because most other parties have virtually no effect on how the U.S. government is run, most voters have to vote for a party they might heavily disagree with. I’ve met republicans who hold many “democrat” opinions, but vote republican because the democrat party has a history of being anti gun. Leave generalizations of large groups to Nazis and white supremacists.
The very fact that Manchin/Bernie and McCain/MTG share parties shows the two party system is an issue. Calling every democrat a commie and every Republican a Nazi is retarded.
I suspect the worst part of nazism was something different.
see https://pawb.social/comment/921213 where I answer a similar comment
This is seriously funny! Too bad so many commenters are apologists.
I still don’t understand how so many people equate the party that supports free speech with the Nazis, and equate the party that wants to disarm the poor with the freedom fighters.
You mean the party banning books? That free speech party?
Banning books is very different to removing them from the school curriculum. I’m sure you know that though
When you say banning books, do you mean removing them from a public school library?
Don’t forget local town/city libraries!
You mean in the kids section? I couldnt find any references to the adults section having books removed in the public libraries.
Good propoganda and PR campaigns.
Yeah, right, “free speech,” unless you write a book with two guys kissing, then it must be banned from schools. Or tear up a photo on TV. Or protest wars in the Middle East. Or kneel during the national anthem. They are all for Cancel Culture and silencing people who speak out against them and their ideas.
The only time conservatives actually get up in arms about “free speech,” which they don’t actually know what it even is, is when they get banned on Twitter for spewing lies and hate. So get out of here with your “supports free speech” nonsense.
Cancel culture has nothing to do with free speech. One is people deciding not to support a company. The other is the government threatening to steal more of a companies money if that company doesn’t silence a person.
To be devils advocate here. It still does not impeach on free speech. You are still capable of sharing your ideas to others. The only reason they leave it as an exception is because they believe it to be sexual in nature, as most republicans just assume the homosexuality is always sexual. Is it a bad take. Yes. However I wouldn’t want my children being handed novels of straight people having sex either. The point against republicans is that the presence homosexual relationships, does not necessitate sexual behavior. It is not free speech that is the issue with their opinion. I will note that there are some better examples were some republicans have been anti free speech (cough bud light…). I think it has less to do with republicanism, and more about our political system as a whole. I see both sides just get mad about whatever is “against” them. I have seen both sides to do evil and ignore there own values temporarily (I think someone coined a term for this kind of thing, I think it was “double think”?). I think it is important to encourage people to think, and to not let their political candidates define them, like it’s a football game or a dystopian novel.
Definitely curious how the party actively working to ban books and prevent people from expressing themselves artistically in public is supporting free speech.
When you say ban books, do you mean removing them from a public school library?
Im not sure what you mean by prevent people from expressing themselves artistically in public. I’m happy to be enlightened.
Drag .
Removing a book with graphic illustrations of blowjobs from a high school library is about as sensible as you can get.
So a teenager can engage in sex, but can’t read about it? Do I have that correct?
Minors can’t consent.
Don’t worry, the grownups understand.
@NewEnglandRedshirt @danialbehzadi
Republicans and Democrats are the same. If Republicans are the Nazis at home, Democrats are funding the Nazis abroad.
Which Nazis abroad do you mean exactly?
Is there any “Memes” community that doesn’t post shit like this? We non Americans don’t care about this, we just want some fun memes and not being forcefed your culture war crap.
Speaking as a non american
Internet culture for certain will be affected by the cultures of member’s nation. Here in this community we (assuming)have many people around the globe so it easy to see we have americans too. Not all memes will be understood or found hilarious by everyone but you just cant say “shit”.
It is shit because these kinds of “memes” are not made to amuse, they’re made to spread ideological views and increase polarization.
Remember, the American Nazi party had a ridiculous amount of traction. Enough to fill Madison Square Garden for Washington’s birthday. Those people didn’t just vanish after WWII. They didn’t denounce their beliefs. They just crawled into the cracks like cockroaches.
Out of the shadows and into the light.
Also the Nazis took example with the pledge of allegiance as an effective tool for indoctrination of school children. In the US it also used to be done with the same gesture that is now the Nazi salute.
Furthermore eugenics and race theory were prominent as “sciences” in the US and the Nazis also took example there. If it wasnt for the alliance to the Japanese and Pearl Harbor, the US might well have been on the Nazis side of history, given that the social and ideological culture had many more similarities than disagreements.
Don’t forget, however, that it was not the “right” in the US that was pro eugenics. It was the left and the Fabien socialists. Also didn’t forget, how those were the groups that were aligning themselves with the KKK.
While your comment about the Nazis getting a lot of their eugenics ideas from America in the 20’s-30’s is accurate, there’s no way in hell that we’d have just accidentally ended up in the Axis powers like that.
Were there Nazis in the US? Absolutely. Was their ideology common and/or the majority? Not at all.
We were literally allied with countries that the Nazis were attacking, and assisting them with supplies long before we ever entered the war due to Pearl Harbor. That’s before we even get into things like the Zimmerman note which indicated that the Germans in WW1 wanted to engage us as an enemy, which doesn’t bode well for their actions against those same allies 20 years later.
You’re taking the fact that eugenics existed here in the US and making up a metric fuck ton of revisionist history surrounding it.
You say all that, but remember the time Prescott Bush was part of a group of rich and powerful men that tried to overthrow FDR and install a fascist government?
That last paragraph is a load of bs.
As long as FDR was in office, there was literally no way the US would have joined Germany. It wasn’t a matter of if, but a matter of when the USA got involved. The us was in by proxy before 41/42, Doing the same stuff the modern US has done for Ukraine, but for the Commonwealth nations.
The raised-arm salute isn’t inherently bad, it’s bad now because the Nazis did it. And so, America using a similar salute before the Nazis doesn’t mean America was as evil as the Nazis.