This post is “FYI only” for blahaj lemmy members. It is not a debate, and is not intended for non blahaj lemmy users to weigh in and offer opinions.
I recently received reports of a feddit.uk user espousing transphobia. Specifically, this was a feddit.uk user refusing to use the word cis, repeating the “adult human female” dog whistle, and claiming that trans women are not women. I approached a member of the feddit.uk admin team and raised my concerns and sought clarification of their stance on posts like this, where the transphobia is mostly dogwhistles, and “civil disagreement” on the validity of trans folk.
I was told by the feddit.uk admin that their preferred response is this kind of transphobia is to “sort it out through discussion and voting”. However, the comments in question are currently more upvoted than downvoted, and little “sorting out” has occurred. The posts remain in place.
At this point, the admin stopped responding to my messages despite being active elsewhere on lemmy. When it became clear they were ignoring my messages and had no intention of removing the posts in question, I made the decision to defederate the instance.
I know some folk agree with the feddit.uk admins approach of pushback through discussion and voting, but this instance is not designed to be that kind of space. Blahaj lemmy is meant to be a place where we can avoid the rampant transphobia universally visible on nearly every other social media platform, and where we can exist without needing to debate our right to do so.
For anyone who’s curious about the actual messages, I think these are them:
A woman is an adult female. A transwoman is an adult female who used to be male. It’s not difficult to grasp that they are different things. You can admit that and still believe that transwomen should be treated with dignity like anyone else.
Personally I don’t give a shit what bathroom people use or what they want to be referred to. I’ll go along with whatever… But a woman and a transwoman are different things, and it’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise. Always have been different things and always will be, no matter what the law states, now or in the future.
Kier’s words are still not transphobia. There is no fear, dislike, prejudice, discrimination, harassment, or violence in his statement. The scream of ‘transphobia’ is thrown around too much for anyone who disagrees with a narrow definition. Any disagreement is labelled as hate, and it’s silly.
Should a transwoman have the same rights and respect and opportunity as a woman (as per the legal definition)? Absolutely. Are they the same? No, they are not. Is that a hateful bigoted viewpoint worthy of scorn? I don’t believe so.
I don’t use the term cis. I use the term woman and you knew exactly what I meant. A blonde woman is a description of a woman’s hair colour and is a semantic-based response that is nothing to do with this point. You know this; it’s a foolish riposte that’s nothing at all to do with the clear and simple fact that a woman who used to be a man is not the same thing as a (cis) woman.
I can call it a woman who used to have a penis or a woman who used to be a man if you want me to be pedantic about it. Nothing to do with hair colour, or skin colour, or anything else except previously being a biological male and now identifying as a woman.
‘adult human female’ is not a dog whistle. It’s a legal and common-sense definition that you clearly understand but are trying to make out to be hate for some reason. I am not denying the legitimacy of transwomen; nor is Keir.
Transwomen and (cis) women are different things. And Transmen and (cis) men are different things. They have different names, which you yourself use for a reason. That reason being they are not the same thing. This is exactly the same as saying transwomen are not women, because they are not. They are transwomen.
Well, they’re right that it is pretty simple. Here’s a fun experiment for anyone who thinks this isn’t transphobic: try reading it again, but substitute black for trans. Totally reasonable they should have to use another bathroom, right?
Did you? They spent the whole post arguing that a trans woman is not a woman. To clarify, a cis woman and a trans woman are different things. Both of these things are women. Cis and trans describe the women.
Some trans women may identify with having once been a man, but it’s hardly the case for all of them, especially the ones who recognized their mistaken assignment early. She was always herself. She was never a man unless she herself identified as one.
The wording “used to be a man” and “used to have a penis” makes me wonder if this person is using genital surgery as a determining factor. It’s thankfully becoming very acceptable these days to be a girl with a penis or boy with a vagina, so that such surgeries are more of a personal decision rather than a means of legitimizing oneself to society.
Idk just saying that transwomen and cis women are different doesn’t seem transphobic in and of itself, especially since the person seems to be saying that they should have the same rights now
It’s a pretty common dogswhistle. The problem is the literal statement itself, that is not wrong in a vacuum.
The problem is that people who think trans women deserve zero rights keep using phrases like this to justify discrimination and hatred, and to funnel people into a position of hatred.
The words, just as defined in the dictionary, are true. But with all the social cargo they carry, it becomes a very insulting and hateful thing.
And that itself helps the haters, because people like you will say “but… This is true, why are you acting like this?”. The answer is because the other 99% of people who make these claims absolutely deserve such a reaction.
Thank you for the explanation, but by your logic any deviation from unconditional, thoughtless, unquestioning support is a dogwhistling hateful statement?
By reacting like the people in comments did they’re alienating anyone unwilling to follow that group blindly.
Look, I’m queer, from Poland, I marched, donated, volunteered and housed alphabetical people in need, and I can see the societal pendulum swinging back right because people are tired of being pushed down for thinking or downright bullied.
I mean the basic argument, that trans identifying peoples are in their own distinct categories outside of the typical gender binary, actually has some interesting meat to it.
Trans men and women do have different experiences from their cisgender counterparts, different medical needs, different journeys. None of which I am experienced enough in the subject to speak to.
Kinda loses me on their “I don’t use the word cis” part though
Op argument is that they are Real Women and then then Women Who Used To Have Penis, reducing the trans experience and identify to the sex they were born into. The part of not using the word cis is not even the worst, imo, like using the word “thing” to talk about people is pretty disgusting, or comparing “blonde women” with “trans women” like if gender identity was just a superficial aspect of a person instead of the fundamental one it is.
Think of it from a math perspective. The non-transphobic stance would be that woman is the superset which contains subsets of trans, cis, and others. The comment says they’re two separate sets, woman and transwoman. This is why cis doesn’t have to be used, because woman is sufficient to describe the set, because trans women aren’t part of it.
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For anyone who’s curious about the actual messages, I think these are them:
I’m so annoyed by these pseudointellectuals who can’t seem to grasp the relatively simple difference between “sex” and “gender”.
Well, they’re right that it is pretty simple. Here’s a fun experiment for anyone who thinks this isn’t transphobic: try reading it again, but substitute black for trans. Totally reasonable they should have to use another bathroom, right?
Did you even read the text?
Did you? They spent the whole post arguing that a trans woman is not a woman. To clarify, a cis woman and a trans woman are different things. Both of these things are women. Cis and trans describe the women.
Some trans women may identify with having once been a man, but it’s hardly the case for all of them, especially the ones who recognized their mistaken assignment early. She was always herself. She was never a man unless she herself identified as one.
The wording “used to be a man” and “used to have a penis” makes me wonder if this person is using genital surgery as a determining factor. It’s thankfully becoming very acceptable these days to be a girl with a penis or boy with a vagina, so that such surgeries are more of a personal decision rather than a means of legitimizing oneself to society.
That’s actually not nearly as extreme as I was expecting
Just because it’s have a cordial tone, but it’s pretty tranphobic all around the place. Master class on sealioning.
Idk just saying that transwomen and cis women are different doesn’t seem transphobic in and of itself, especially since the person seems to be saying that they should have the same rights now
Right, I agree, but that’s not what they’re saying. They’re saying women and transwomen aren’t the same.
As in, a rephrase of “transwomen aren’t women”.
Interesting. Totally not how I understand the text. I read it as, rephrase:
And when I read it like that, you all seem to be overreacting to me.
It’s a pretty common dogswhistle. The problem is the literal statement itself, that is not wrong in a vacuum.
The problem is that people who think trans women deserve zero rights keep using phrases like this to justify discrimination and hatred, and to funnel people into a position of hatred.
The words, just as defined in the dictionary, are true. But with all the social cargo they carry, it becomes a very insulting and hateful thing.
And that itself helps the haters, because people like you will say “but… This is true, why are you acting like this?”. The answer is because the other 99% of people who make these claims absolutely deserve such a reaction.
Thank you for the explanation, but by your logic any deviation from unconditional, thoughtless, unquestioning support is a dogwhistling hateful statement?
By reacting like the people in comments did they’re alienating anyone unwilling to follow that group blindly.
Look, I’m queer, from Poland, I marched, donated, volunteered and housed alphabetical people in need, and I can see the societal pendulum swinging back right because people are tired of being pushed down for thinking or downright bullied.
I mean the basic argument, that trans identifying peoples are in their own distinct categories outside of the typical gender binary, actually has some interesting meat to it.
Trans men and women do have different experiences from their cisgender counterparts, different medical needs, different journeys. None of which I am experienced enough in the subject to speak to.
Kinda loses me on their “I don’t use the word cis” part though
Op argument is that they are Real Women and then then Women Who Used To Have Penis, reducing the trans experience and identify to the sex they were born into. The part of not using the word cis is not even the worst, imo, like using the word “thing” to talk about people is pretty disgusting, or comparing “blonde women” with “trans women” like if gender identity was just a superficial aspect of a person instead of the fundamental one it is.
See, I just don’t think what you’ve deduced the argument to was what was actually said.
Think of it from a math perspective. The non-transphobic stance would be that woman is the superset which contains subsets of trans, cis, and others. The comment says they’re two separate sets, woman and transwoman. This is why cis doesn’t have to be used, because woman is sufficient to describe the set, because trans women aren’t part of it.
This fucking website, “Let me just simplify that to the idea of math supersets for you”…and it works
Relevant
It still doesn’t answer the question of who is allowed to use certain bathrooms.
The UK is known for polite transphobia.
Isn’t that pretty much just JK Rowling? Iirc, the govt and BBC are pretty good about it
Considering recent events, I’d disagree with the idea the government is good about it.