This post is “FYI only” for blahaj lemmy members. It is not a debate, and is not intended for non blahaj lemmy users to weigh in and offer opinions.
I recently received reports of a feddit.uk user espousing transphobia. Specifically, this was a feddit.uk user refusing to use the word cis, repeating the “adult human female” dog whistle, and claiming that trans women are not women. I approached a member of the feddit.uk admin team and raised my concerns and sought clarification of their stance on posts like this, where the transphobia is mostly dogwhistles, and “civil disagreement” on the validity of trans folk.
I was told by the feddit.uk admin that their preferred response is this kind of transphobia is to “sort it out through discussion and voting”. However, the comments in question are currently more upvoted than downvoted, and little “sorting out” has occurred. The posts remain in place.
At this point, the admin stopped responding to my messages despite being active elsewhere on lemmy. When it became clear they were ignoring my messages and had no intention of removing the posts in question, I made the decision to defederate the instance.
I know some folk agree with the feddit.uk admins approach of pushback through discussion and voting, but this instance is not designed to be that kind of space. Blahaj lemmy is meant to be a place where we can avoid the rampant transphobia universally visible on nearly every other social media platform, and where we can exist without needing to debate our right to do so.
This a social media platform and leni is a mentally unstable person.
Behavior from blaha is more telling than whatever stupid shit leni says.
Nobody takes this person seriously… He ain’t a hitler in bar in bavaria and y’all need to learn how to spot threat actors because excessive censorship is how trump got elected ;)
What is it with you and your grudge against me? All because I listened to people higher than me and temporarily removed you from a community for trying to dog whistle that Luigi guy (or is this based on year-old claims that have fallen apart in the face of discussion). You’re not even removed anymore, so who again is demonstrating what kind of demeanor here?
In a world where misinformation justifies itself that way and where you have indeed existentially rallied against me on multiple occasions, both parts of what you just said are debatable.
Leni is clown but yeah content in question hardly warrants all this drama. The main value here is seeing blaha mods getting this bent out of shape over it.
The over reach is inappropriate. On reddit, we would never be privy to any of this. Fedi has brought a lot of light about how these clowns operate.
Modding like this is censorship which should be reserved for criminal issues and actual trolling.
In case you haven’t noticed, I’m not relevant to any of this either. You’re the first person to bring me up and what all this hoopla about me right now is based on. I’m not sure how someone is a clown for sticking to values she is always willing to discuss.
I wouldn’t leave it to just trolling and illegal stuff. Spamming obvious propaganda, shitting up a digital space with dumb bullshit (doesn’t have to political, just distracting and irrelevant), commercial spam, baiting users to piss them off. There are many situations were mod actions are justified.
I think trolling covers most of what you listed but I definitely missed commercial spam. I forgot about since this ain’t reddit. But yeah that’s definitely deserves a ban.
For anyone who’s curious about the actual messages, I think these are them:
A woman is an adult female. A transwoman is an adult female who used to be male. It’s not difficult to grasp that they are different things. You can admit that and still believe that transwomen should be treated with dignity like anyone else.
Personally I don’t give a shit what bathroom people use or what they want to be referred to. I’ll go along with whatever… But a woman and a transwoman are different things, and it’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise. Always have been different things and always will be, no matter what the law states, now or in the future.
Kier’s words are still not transphobia. There is no fear, dislike, prejudice, discrimination, harassment, or violence in his statement. The scream of ‘transphobia’ is thrown around too much for anyone who disagrees with a narrow definition. Any disagreement is labelled as hate, and it’s silly.
Should a transwoman have the same rights and respect and opportunity as a woman (as per the legal definition)? Absolutely. Are they the same? No, they are not. Is that a hateful bigoted viewpoint worthy of scorn? I don’t believe so.
I don’t use the term cis. I use the term woman and you knew exactly what I meant. A blonde woman is a description of a woman’s hair colour and is a semantic-based response that is nothing to do with this point. You know this; it’s a foolish riposte that’s nothing at all to do with the clear and simple fact that a woman who used to be a man is not the same thing as a (cis) woman.
I can call it a woman who used to have a penis or a woman who used to be a man if you want me to be pedantic about it. Nothing to do with hair colour, or skin colour, or anything else except previously being a biological male and now identifying as a woman.
‘adult human female’ is not a dog whistle. It’s a legal and common-sense definition that you clearly understand but are trying to make out to be hate for some reason. I am not denying the legitimacy of transwomen; nor is Keir.
Transwomen and (cis) women are different things. And Transmen and (cis) men are different things. They have different names, which you yourself use for a reason. That reason being they are not the same thing. This is exactly the same as saying transwomen are not women, because they are not. They are transwomen.
Well, they’re right that it is pretty simple. Here’s a fun experiment for anyone who thinks this isn’t transphobic: try reading it again, but substitute black for trans. Totally reasonable they should have to use another bathroom, right?
Did you? They spent the whole post arguing that a trans woman is not a woman. To clarify, a cis woman and a trans woman are different things. Both of these things are women. Cis and trans describe the women.
Some trans women may identify with having once been a man, but it’s hardly the case for all of them, especially the ones who recognized their mistaken assignment early. She was always herself. She was never a man unless she herself identified as one.
The wording “used to be a man” and “used to have a penis” makes me wonder if this person is using genital surgery as a determining factor. It’s thankfully becoming very acceptable these days to be a girl with a penis or boy with a vagina, so that such surgeries are more of a personal decision rather than a means of legitimizing oneself to society.
Idk just saying that transwomen and cis women are different doesn’t seem transphobic in and of itself, especially since the person seems to be saying that they should have the same rights now
It’s a pretty common dogswhistle. The problem is the literal statement itself, that is not wrong in a vacuum.
The problem is that people who think trans women deserve zero rights keep using phrases like this to justify discrimination and hatred, and to funnel people into a position of hatred.
The words, just as defined in the dictionary, are true. But with all the social cargo they carry, it becomes a very insulting and hateful thing.
And that itself helps the haters, because people like you will say “but… This is true, why are you acting like this?”. The answer is because the other 99% of people who make these claims absolutely deserve such a reaction.
Thank you for the explanation, but by your logic any deviation from unconditional, thoughtless, unquestioning support is a dogwhistling hateful statement?
By reacting like the people in comments did they’re alienating anyone unwilling to follow that group blindly.
Look, I’m queer, from Poland, I marched, donated, volunteered and housed alphabetical people in need, and I can see the societal pendulum swinging back right because people are tired of being pushed down for thinking or downright bullied.
I mean the basic argument, that trans identifying peoples are in their own distinct categories outside of the typical gender binary, actually has some interesting meat to it.
Trans men and women do have different experiences from their cisgender counterparts, different medical needs, different journeys. None of which I am experienced enough in the subject to speak to.
Kinda loses me on their “I don’t use the word cis” part though
Op argument is that they are Real Women and then then Women Who Used To Have Penis, reducing the trans experience and identify to the sex they were born into. The part of not using the word cis is not even the worst, imo, like using the word “thing” to talk about people is pretty disgusting, or comparing “blonde women” with “trans women” like if gender identity was just a superficial aspect of a person instead of the fundamental one it is.
Think of it from a math perspective. The non-transphobic stance would be that woman is the superset which contains subsets of trans, cis, and others. The comment says they’re two separate sets, woman and transwoman. This is why cis doesn’t have to be used, because woman is sufficient to describe the set, because trans women aren’t part of it.
I’d argue it wasn’t defederated because of one user, it was defederating because of a fundamental disagreement in moderation policies.
The one user could’ve been saying anything people could find deplorable. It was that the admin chose to be hands-off about it that pulled the trigger.
Which is a good thing, in that servers are allowed to decide how they want to handle moderation, and other server owners are allowed to decide if they accept that, or if they expect the moderation will lead to continued problems of the same vein down the road. The fediverse working as intended.
Hi, Feddit UK admin here, I’d just like to add a bit more context. We’re currently discussing these comments in an admin chat, though this was apparently not communicated to Ada so she got the impression inaction was our position. Our position is not inaction, but these specific comments have become wrapped up in a policy discussion on how we facilitate discussion of our state’s increasing hostile actions without allowing transphobia to propagate. I hope we can rectify the situation soon, but doing things by committee is never swift.
The comments in question were removed last week and our internal position has been clarified, that there’s no need to change our working definition of transphobia, albeit with some new considerations to allow people to talk about the transphobic actions of the British state. We want to make a statement, but the others seem busy with things outside of Lemmy.
I’m currently working on some guidelines for c/uk_politics to help potentially less informed users navigate the current situation without inadvertently being transphobic.
Yeah, I hope the guidelines help. I really want to believe that a lot of attitudes we see about trans people are from a place of ignorance rather than malice, though I do fear that I’m being naïve. The admin statement will, frustratingly, take awhile, if at all, as it’s been two weeks since I’ve heard from another admin, unless I make one unilaterally.
But I do wanna say that I’ve had interactions with the .uk admins over the last year or so. Their user histories exist.
I think it important to note that the individual admins have been public in their support of trans issues. While the slow response is definitely an issue, try not to villainize them without something concrete to back that up. Any of us that disagree with the delay in particular (and please note the inclusive plural), remember that someone can make a bad choice and still be an ally.
Yeah, the optimum response would have been immediate action via comment removals, with debate to follow and reinstatement if merited after debate; combined with prompt communication (within a realistic range of prompt for someone not glued to their instance 24/7). But optimum isn’t always going to happen. My grumpy, cantankerous old ass is not often optimum, so I sure can’t hold delays and iffy reasoning against anyone else, as long as they get there eventually.
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I asked the admin of my instance to defederate as well in a show of solidarity.
Censorship attempt failed… These people are so fucking annoying. They can’t tell a difference between a discussion and hatred.
Nothing lost, good for feddit.UK admins for having a back bone.
Let these children self segregate and jerk each other off within their echo chambers
We got a class war to fight and corpos to destroy anyway!
Read The Parable of the Nazi Bar.
This a social media platform and leni is a mentally unstable person.
Behavior from blaha is more telling than whatever stupid shit leni says.
Nobody takes this person seriously… He ain’t a hitler in bar in bavaria and y’all need to learn how to spot threat actors because excessive censorship is how trump got elected ;)
What is it with you and your grudge against me? All because I listened to people higher than me and temporarily removed you from a community for trying to dog whistle that Luigi guy (or is this based on year-old claims that have fallen apart in the face of discussion). You’re not even removed anymore, so who again is demonstrating what kind of demeanor here?
Your record speaks for itself dear but I never demand you being censored
In a world where misinformation justifies itself that way and where you have indeed existentially rallied against me on multiple occasions, both parts of what you just said are debatable.
That’s how a discussion works
People can make up their own opinions based on what is presented
A statement which directly challenges and is challenged by your earlier one that “my records speak for themselves”.
How is this relevant?
Did you read the alleged offending text? It’s not transphobic, let alone Nazi.
Leni is clown but yeah content in question hardly warrants all this drama. The main value here is seeing blaha mods getting this bent out of shape over it.
The over reach is inappropriate. On reddit, we would never be privy to any of this. Fedi has brought a lot of light about how these clowns operate.
Modding like this is censorship which should be reserved for criminal issues and actual trolling.
In case you haven’t noticed, I’m not relevant to any of this either. You’re the first person to bring me up and what all this hoopla about me right now is based on. I’m not sure how someone is a clown for sticking to values she is always willing to discuss.
Sorry, who is Leni?
I wouldn’t leave it to just trolling and illegal stuff. Spamming obvious propaganda, shitting up a digital space with dumb bullshit (doesn’t have to political, just distracting and irrelevant), commercial spam, baiting users to piss them off. There are many situations were mod actions are justified.
But this is definitely not the case.
https://thebrainbin.org/u/@[email protected]
Leni is another hadnle that’s easier to spell
I think trolling covers most of what you listed but I definitely missed commercial spam. I forgot about since this ain’t reddit. But yeah that’s definitely deserves a ban.
How have I done any of that?
I don’t think you are trolling. You are just off. Hence why I do not support you being censored.
You should have the ability to express yourself if this is your real opinions. Content itself is clown grade tho
For anyone who’s curious about the actual messages, I think these are them:
Well, they’re right that it is pretty simple. Here’s a fun experiment for anyone who thinks this isn’t transphobic: try reading it again, but substitute black for trans. Totally reasonable they should have to use another bathroom, right?
Did you even read the text?
Did you? They spent the whole post arguing that a trans woman is not a woman. To clarify, a cis woman and a trans woman are different things. Both of these things are women. Cis and trans describe the women.
Some trans women may identify with having once been a man, but it’s hardly the case for all of them, especially the ones who recognized their mistaken assignment early. She was always herself. She was never a man unless she herself identified as one.
The wording “used to be a man” and “used to have a penis” makes me wonder if this person is using genital surgery as a determining factor. It’s thankfully becoming very acceptable these days to be a girl with a penis or boy with a vagina, so that such surgeries are more of a personal decision rather than a means of legitimizing oneself to society.
I’m so annoyed by these pseudointellectuals who can’t seem to grasp the relatively simple difference between “sex” and “gender”.
That’s actually not nearly as extreme as I was expecting
Just because it’s have a cordial tone, but it’s pretty tranphobic all around the place. Master class on sealioning.
Idk just saying that transwomen and cis women are different doesn’t seem transphobic in and of itself, especially since the person seems to be saying that they should have the same rights now
Right, I agree, but that’s not what they’re saying. They’re saying women and transwomen aren’t the same.
As in, a rephrase of “transwomen aren’t women”.
Interesting. Totally not how I understand the text. I read it as, rephrase:
And when I read it like that, you all seem to be overreacting to me.
It’s a pretty common dogswhistle. The problem is the literal statement itself, that is not wrong in a vacuum.
The problem is that people who think trans women deserve zero rights keep using phrases like this to justify discrimination and hatred, and to funnel people into a position of hatred.
The words, just as defined in the dictionary, are true. But with all the social cargo they carry, it becomes a very insulting and hateful thing.
And that itself helps the haters, because people like you will say “but… This is true, why are you acting like this?”. The answer is because the other 99% of people who make these claims absolutely deserve such a reaction.
Thank you for the explanation, but by your logic any deviation from unconditional, thoughtless, unquestioning support is a dogwhistling hateful statement?
By reacting like the people in comments did they’re alienating anyone unwilling to follow that group blindly.
Look, I’m queer, from Poland, I marched, donated, volunteered and housed alphabetical people in need, and I can see the societal pendulum swinging back right because people are tired of being pushed down for thinking or downright bullied.
I mean the basic argument, that trans identifying peoples are in their own distinct categories outside of the typical gender binary, actually has some interesting meat to it.
Trans men and women do have different experiences from their cisgender counterparts, different medical needs, different journeys. None of which I am experienced enough in the subject to speak to.
Kinda loses me on their “I don’t use the word cis” part though
Op argument is that they are Real Women and then then Women Who Used To Have Penis, reducing the trans experience and identify to the sex they were born into. The part of not using the word cis is not even the worst, imo, like using the word “thing” to talk about people is pretty disgusting, or comparing “blonde women” with “trans women” like if gender identity was just a superficial aspect of a person instead of the fundamental one it is.
See, I just don’t think what you’ve deduced the argument to was what was actually said.
Think of it from a math perspective. The non-transphobic stance would be that woman is the superset which contains subsets of trans, cis, and others. The comment says they’re two separate sets, woman and transwoman. This is why cis doesn’t have to be used, because woman is sufficient to describe the set, because trans women aren’t part of it.
This fucking website, “Let me just simplify that to the idea of math supersets for you”…and it works
Relevant
The UK is known for polite transphobia.
Isn’t that pretty much just JK Rowling? Iirc, the govt and BBC are pretty good about it
Considering recent events, I’d disagree with the idea the government is good about it.
I think it seems justified. Ava’s moderation approach may seem heavy handed, but she hasn’t done anything unjustified.
Yeah, this is just the Fediverse operating as intended. Some instances are heavily federated, others are less so. This gives people options.
deleted by creator
Do you have more details?
deleted by creator
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/1204784
You wanna bet?
Defederate an instance because of a single problematic user doesn’t feel right.
But also defederate an instance because their admins don’t comply their own rules doesn’t feel wrong.
Read the “offending” text:
https://sh.itjust.works/post/36737764/18213591
This is hardly transphobia.
I’d argue it wasn’t defederated because of one user, it was defederating because of a fundamental disagreement in moderation policies.
The one user could’ve been saying anything people could find deplorable. It was that the admin chose to be hands-off about it that pulled the trigger.
Which is a good thing, in that servers are allowed to decide how they want to handle moderation, and other server owners are allowed to decide if they accept that, or if they expect the moderation will lead to continued problems of the same vein down the road. The fediverse working as intended.
Hi, Feddit UK admin here, I’d just like to add a bit more context. We’re currently discussing these comments in an admin chat, though this was apparently not communicated to Ada so she got the impression inaction was our position. Our position is not inaction, but these specific comments have become wrapped up in a policy discussion on how we facilitate discussion of our state’s increasing hostile actions without allowing transphobia to propagate. I hope we can rectify the situation soon, but doing things by committee is never swift.
Ada has said that she defederated because of a lack of response, not the content itself.
Extra context is helpful, thanks.
I think blaha’s behavior here is telling and should be considered in the decision making process.
What specifically?
Dramatic spazzing
Yes. Blahaj’s decisive reaction should show the correct behavior to take. Late is better than never.
So it’s been 2 weeks, what’s happened? Cause it still feels like nothing but inaction, unless there was a followup I missed.
The comments in question were removed last week and our internal position has been clarified, that there’s no need to change our working definition of transphobia, albeit with some new considerations to allow people to talk about the transphobic actions of the British state. We want to make a statement, but the others seem busy with things outside of Lemmy.
I’m currently working on some guidelines for c/uk_politics to help potentially less informed users navigate the current situation without inadvertently being transphobic.
Thank you. Looking forward that announcement, hopefully that they convince Blahaj to redeferate
Yeah, I hope the guidelines help. I really want to believe that a lot of attitudes we see about trans people are from a place of ignorance rather than malice, though I do fear that I’m being naïve. The admin statement will, frustratingly, take awhile, if at all, as it’s been two weeks since I’ve heard from another admin, unless I make one unilaterally.
Hello @[email protected] , any update on this?
I’m coming to this specific post late.
But I do wanna say that I’ve had interactions with the .uk admins over the last year or so. Their user histories exist.
I think it important to note that the individual admins have been public in their support of trans issues. While the slow response is definitely an issue, try not to villainize them without something concrete to back that up. Any of us that disagree with the delay in particular (and please note the inclusive plural), remember that someone can make a bad choice and still be an ally.
Yeah, the optimum response would have been immediate action via comment removals, with debate to follow and reinstatement if merited after debate; combined with prompt communication (within a realistic range of prompt for someone not glued to their instance 24/7). But optimum isn’t always going to happen. My grumpy, cantankerous old ass is not often optimum, so I sure can’t hold delays and iffy reasoning against anyone else, as long as they get there eventually.