Starting with this post:
https://sh.itjust.works/post/44999037
Continues here:
https://sh.itjust.works/post/45035437
More posts discussing the fallout:
Dbzer0 admin claiming Uyghur genocide is ‘overblown and misrepresented’
Dbzer0 admin casually defending Uyghur genocide denial because “libs worse”, yikes
Banned from meanwhileongrad for “No db0 allowed”.
Removed false allegations against goat from a post on db0
Another anarchist tankie did a write-up of the situation
More links: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52444570
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/329886
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is “taking on admins” what we’re now calling PugJesus and (self-proclaimed member of neo-nazi forums) goat rage-posting on comms they moderate?
lol. lmao even.
I thought anarchism was about DISMANTLING power dynamics like that of a tankie admin cabal?
They are the few against th emany.
that’s because you have never read anything about anarchism and have no idea what it is. anarchism as a philosophy requires solidarity. and solidarity means a community coming together to protect itself from those bad actors who wish it harm. the freedom of association that is a core part of anarchism also means the freedom to disassociate. banning pug and goat was our community disassociating itself from someone who doesn’t wish us well and doesn’t want to be a part of us anyway. anyone who is on our matrix knows that everyone there was very supportive of the way the dbzer0 and AN admins have taken care of the situation and protected the peace of our community. nothing that has happened is at all at odds with anarchism, any more than it would be at odds with liberalism or communism.
neither pug nor goat have lost their ability to take part in fedi, an ability they have made good use of by posting constant rage posts in their own comms. a couple of sad little kings, presiding over their sad little hills.
When was I banned?
I don’t wish fascists or their apologists well, nor do I make a habit of participating in their comms. Sorry that you seem to think otherwise.
Considering trying out for the Olympics with that amount of mental gymnastics?
I’m sorry, what do you regard Uyghur genocide denial, Holodomor denial, and the support of Vanguard parties overthrowing democracy as?
Is that what anarchism is to you?
First two I simply dont see from /0 staff nor the vast majority of the users you’re delusional on both points. On the third neo liberal “democracy” isnt real and is largely a vessel for control by the capitalist oligarchic class, I do not think ML is the solution to that however.
Furthermore, despite aggressively (and rightly) removing other forms of genocide denial in that comm, both Holodomor and Uyghur Genocide denial are left up in that thread, despite the participation of multiple admins and the reporting of the material.
In addition to that, both Uyghur genocide denial and Holodomor denial in that same thread are upvoted by the Dbzer0 community.
How many dbzer0 users would you like me to cite engaging in Uyghur genocide denial or Holodomor denial before you’ll concede that it might be a problem? Legitimate question, I know of a significant number, so I may be able to convince you if you’re legitimately just skeptical.
Rather than being a reference to modern democratic states, the position is in relevance to the Spartacist Uprising, which proposed, in response to Germany’s defeat in WW1 and subsequent incoming elections which the KPD was not barred from running in, and which were largely spearheaded by the then-much-more-left-wing-than-the-modern-day SPD, to attempt a coup explicitly along Bolshevik lines, which had, the previous year, dissolved a democratically elected revolutionary government in Russia.
DB0 believes that this vanguardist approach is true anarchist praxis, praising ML imitators as ‘libertarian socialists’.
Wow, these guys surely take “side with me fully or you’re the enemy” approach for no reason at all. db0 instance has never denied the Uyghur genocide, but people there are painting their moderation as a villain for no reason.
I think the action in the YE OLD POWERTRIPPING MODS community proves the point, no?
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My community never started this
Lol
Pretty common on lemmy. I would say its also a microcosm of the reality of leftist movements. We won’t agree on core values and as such have no real movements or coalitions for our goals.
I knew from the beginning that being able to see who votes how on what will cause some shit.
But like @[email protected] already said: block that skynet instance and be done with it.
Its still extremely visible, that does just about nothing, FYI.
100% this. And so many people still say we need it because it “stops vote brigading.” Which it obviously doesn’t even do.
Meanwhile this kind of drama is getting worse, and we haven’t even scraped the surface of potential downsides yet. I, for one, can’t wait until we have armies of AI driven astroturf bots which use public voting vote to target engagement far beyond what is possible with just comments.
If you don’t want down votes to impact post visibility as much then change the algorithm to do that. Hell, give mods tools to just quietly ignore down votes entire on a case by case basis. Bothe of these things are stupidly simple and would be vastly more effective at dealing with vote brigades than mods making Pepe DaSilva sting graphs trying to root out connected users.
Its more that it does effectively nothing.
You don’t even need to run an instance to see vote history. ActivityPub federates all activity across, and lemmy does not obfuscate in any way.
Any real change to address this would have to be done much lower than whether or not lemvotes sees it.
why are you against user information and transparency? only tankies want to hide things
It does seem like an obvious drama factory for people that don’t have the proper mentality of laughing at someone for bringing up votes, calling them a loser that needs to touch grass and blocking them so they don’t waste any more of your life
Is this the left-wing infighting the memes have forewarned about?
Lol, pugjesus and goat are nowhere near “the left”
PJ claims to be, somehow, they put “vaguely left” in their profile. They hate both Marxism and anarchism, though, and seem to always act as though they are the true judge of someone being Marxist or anarchist. They seem to love social democracy, itself right-wing. You’d think after getting disproven over and over again, they’d actually start to listen to the Marxists and anarchists, but instead they powertrip and ban all dissent. Toxic behavior, and kinda sad.
Goat, on the other hand, has never claimed to be on the left to my knowledge. They’ve openly been pretty right wing this entire time. Toxic, but not sad, seems they just want to rile people up and provoke a reaction more than anything.
I’ve never labelled myself as anything. Not right, not left, not anything.
Violent Femmes - I’m Nothing feat. Stefan Janoski (Official Video)
dude that’s actually a bop
Marxism and Anarchism aren’t the only way to express the left.
I consider the left to be pro-socialism, and anti-capitalism. Under that general umbrella, Marxism and anarchism are by far the largest umbrellas. There are some groups like the Zapatistas that reject both labels, and they are valid, but few in number.
Just throwing out there that you’re not the bar with which the left is measured.
I appreciate your take but you aren’t an authority and nobody here is, and almost everyone around here seems to be incapable of understanding that their specific view isn’t the ideal.
Purity tests are best left for fascism
I’m not an authority, no. Never claimed to be. However, outside of the Zapatistas, I’m not sure I can even name a leftist movement that doesn’t draw directly from Marxism or anarchism in the modern era. Marxism generally is heavily influential over those for full collectivization, while anarchism is heavily influential over those that seek horizontalism and decentralization. Groups that reject both are usually just social democrats that wish to retain capitalism.
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Not who you asked, but I’d say the closest outside Zapatismo is Nkruhmahism-Touréism, which draws heavy influence from Marxism-Leninism to my understanding but takes most of its influence specifically from Kwame Nkrumah and Ahmed Touré.
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Nkrumahism-Touréism is gaining in popularity among pan-African socialists, but that’s about the extent of my knowledge on the subject. Quasi-socialist national liberation movements like Nasserism are generally progressive in moving against imperialism and towards self-determination, so in that frame it’s like a more progressive Baathism. In the context of imperialism as the primary obstacle to global socialism, those groups earn more critical support than comprador regimes.
That being said, I’m far from an expert on Nasser and Nasserism, the middle east is an area I’m quite undereducated on. Hoping to learn more about African struggles in the How Europe Underdeveloped Africa reading threads, but outside of Palestinian liberation and the various factions involved with it like the PFLP, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, my knowledge for now is too low for me to really have an opinion beyond my general support for opposition to imperialism.
I think cm0002, the deeply scratched anti-authoritarian-communist liberal, had the political savviness to stay out of these [email protected] conversations. He isn’t banned from that community or instance, and he was otherwise active, so I think this was a conscious choice. Let goat & pg take the heat.
nice and comfortable
I haven’t seen any takes from that person to imply they’re a fascist. I think there’s enough beef going around without throwing more into this bonfire.
Yeah he’s just a dick about stealing memes, which is weird, because you can just say you’re “seizing the memes” from .ml and they won’t mind
“stealing memes” is not a thing lol.
It’s my understanding the user posts .ml memes to other communities not to spread the meme per se, but to discourage others from engaging with them on .ml.
The efficacy or righteousness of that is beyond my scope as a passive consumer.
He explicitly states that as his goal in reposting lemmy.ml content, and he frequently encourages people & instances to boycott/ban/defederate not only the “tankie triad” (a term that AFAIK I he coined himself), but also the entire Lemmy platform.
And he hangs out in the Nazi bar a lot.
I’m utterly shocked that the Zionist social chauvanists that tend their nazi-bar and spend all day attacking Marxists would some day start targeting anarchists for not being in lock-step with them. Shocked, I tell you!
In all seriousness, I called this over a year ago. Being right-wing socdems at best and spending all your time attacking communists is already the twin of fascism, then you add in caping for Israel, casual misogyny, transphobia, etc and anyone could have seen a mile away that their “purity tests” would eventually also draw anarchists into their fire.
Extremely toxic behavior.
We were expecting it as well to happen at some point. There was no love lost between us and the libs during the US election period, and there’s always been a lot of peeps hating us for our principled stances on copyrights, electoralism and “left unity”. I think it was a bit of an assumption on your part to think that just because we were arguing some times with campists, we weren’t also arguing with turbolibs.
Funnily PJ did show his hand, by claiming out that he has anarchists that he gets along with. And then pointed out to people who just discovered anarchism less 1 year ago. Funny how further radicalism pushes people away from liberalism, innit? :D
“Showing your hand is when someone asks you to name one (1) anarchist you speak to, and you do, musing that you could name more and that the question was pretty fucking stupid”
Nobody talked to you, fuck off.
I see your feelings are hurt when your bullshit is called out, as per usual.
Tankies of a feather flock together
Projection of the finest degree right here.
lmao, my favorite stalker is back. Gonna spend another year talking about me, lover? I know how much you adore spreading easily disproven bullshit.
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I didn’t mean you should be surprised, I figured most of y’all expected it too. This is more for those on your site that are big fans of MWoG despite it being a Nazi bar (won’t get into names, not interested in that, and it isn’t a majority of your users, maybe a handful), as well as those on the more liberal instances that align with PJ’s “left” anti-leftism, ie Lemmy.world.
I agree with your general stances on copyrights and electoralism, and am not trying to get into an argument about “campism.” I just think in this particular moment as leftists we are both aligned, and can at least appreciate that aspect. I know we have our disagreements, but that’s not something I want to get into now, I’m just having a bit of fun with people turning on MWoG, PJ, and Goat.
Edit: Yes, I saw that anarchist claim! PJ also claims to know more about Marxism than me, which, I think even with your disagreements with me we can both agree that that’s absurd. I’m no expert, of course, but I think I can humbly accept that I’ve put in the effort to know what I talk about in that regard.
PJ scorching the earth and we’re sitting on the side popping popcorn on the fire looking at each other like ‘wat’ :D
Yep, exactly! I’d be lying if I said I didn’t feel a bit bad for PJ, they seem to be crashing out more and more lately. They’re still wrong, of course, but unlike Goat PJ at least seems like they have the potential to change their views in the future instead of remaining a permanent radlib. I’m only really saying this because I’m pretty sure PJ has me blocked, lol.
I don’t think this is going the way you’re hoping it would. I’m actually seeing an increase in support
The fact this thread has three times as many comments as total votes goes to show how well the fediverse knows the lengths to which these users will go find new targets to justify harassment.
And then say we’re the assholes for defending ourselves from the slander and insults.
Look what you made me do! This is your fault! I wouldn’t have had to do this if you just went along with this!
This started with me defending myself from slander and insults and proving that your instance brigades, harass and now even post fake nude images. Your instance is even federated with Hexbear. How do you defend that?
I’ve never heard anyone accuse dbzer0 of brigading before, and I’m often unsure what someone considers brigading to be.
I don’t understand. Are fake nude images of fake people worse than real nude images of real people?
I’m sure that sounded relevant in your head, where federating with Hexbear is self-evidently a sin. If they owe you a defense, what’s the accusation?
They regularly target specific comments and threads that are linked from their snark community. Here are some recent examples of how they manipulate threads that are linked by their community.
I’m not fake
They’re posting fake nudes of you? How would anyone on Lemmy know what you look like?
Top tier projection from my favorite fan, as always.
If you really don’t want drama then learn what you’re doing that tends to bring it on and do less of that.
Sorry for condemning genocide denial?
Watch out, he’ll call you a fascist or a Tankie for wanting him to look in the mirror!
making fake nudes is certainly a new one
I told you, don’t feed the nazi trolls. The worst for their kind is to be starved out of attention.
That’s actually pretty obvious that people who don’t care about ANY genocide at all are actually Goat and PugJesus themselves. They just found bait that worked for you guys.
cursing the trolls
We’re not the ones denying the cultural genocide of the Uyghurs or the holodomor
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I am usually very polite, but let it be an event
Go back eating shit at the place you seem to enjoy, nazi scum 😊
so brave
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That asshole post is fake btw
… you all do know that goat specifically says they just like riling people up, right?
And you’re just gobbling down the nonsense and getting riled up?
With claims of things that go directly against the rules of the instance?
This is some weird ass shit stirring going on. Enjoy your manufactured drama folks.
Just documenting important lemmy-lore
LOL sure thing bud.
NGL having a hard time telling the different flavors of tankies apart.
I thought the db0 guys were ok, but they deny genocide A and what about Genocide B.
Then I thought the folks against db0 were ok, but turns out they approve of genocide A and deny genocide B.
Idk who needs to hear this but oppressing other people is bad regardless of who you are.
Meanwhileongrad doesn’t approve of any genocide, neither do I.
just don’t kill people, it’s pretty easy
what if the people i want to kill are doing a genocide?
That’s one of the biggest problems, isn’t it? Gandhi said the Jews during the Holocaust should mass suicide to send a message to the world, as if the world cared about the holocaust at that stage. And also that’s kind of stupid…
The allies showed mercy to the Nazis and then skip ahead and now you have nazis in the US government heiling hitler on the world stage.
Really, I don’t know. I suppose like all things it depends on context? im just a goat, i don’t like violence
Where does db0 deny and aprove of genocide?
Correct.
Don’t worry, just like the admins leaving up Holodomor denial, I’m sure that you think it’s not a ‘real’ genocide.
In the thread mentioned db0 folks deny the Uyghur genocide
aka denying one while espousing how bad another is.
Destroying a people through violence: genocide
Destroying a people through cultural erasure and sterilizations and birth rates: genocide
No they don’t. They say bad things are happening but it doesn’t meet the definition of genocide, which the United Nations and Amnesty International agree with.
So is the UN and AI now denying genocide?
The UN also says what’s happening in Gaza isn’t a genocide. Sooooooo.
This is exactly why people look down their nose at all of yall
And yes, I ask in that thread and have the parroted “THE UN AND AI AND OTHER NGOS DONT CALL IT ONE” then get lambasted for it because I’m not talking about Gaza as if I’m incapable of caring about two things at once.
Yeah they look down at us, and not PJ and Goat being totally weird about the instance they can’t bend to their will.
Yes … because of the genocide denial and militant arguments against anyone who can care about more than just the one thing yall are arguing about.
The other thing is just internet drama.
I hope that helps explain why.
I’m ardently against the Palestinian genocide, despite the attempts of certain users to assert otherwise.
Copy pasting from a comment below
@[email protected] explanation
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/21109507
From @[email protected]
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52160152/21075559
On the other hand the single mod on [email protected] seems quite ban happy lately, and resorting to debatable arguments
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/20731327
And the amount of posts on [email protected] by that same single mod is concerning. How many of those do they need make, reusing the same screenshot ad nauseam when Unruffled recognized that China’s actions towards the Uyghur meet the definition of a genocide (see comment above)?
“They walked it back after being called out with a half-assed ‘Well, I think it meets the definition, but the West is worse so it doesn’t matter!’ after spreading common fuckwit fascist talking points and denying genocide, whilst simultaneously praising denialism of that same genocide and allowing genocide denial in comms they moderate, clearly they didn’t mean it”
Yes, clearly. /s
as proven by cm002 the bigger community is more important that is why .world will win
Someone really needs to touch grass :D
Went outside and touched grass as per usual; still have not become an Uyghur genocide denier, nor have I decided to allow Holodomor genocide denial, nor have I defended Vanguardist parties suppressing democracy whilst claiming to be an anarchist.
I guess it’s just you.
I was talking about the OP, but don’t let me stop you from the opportunity to lie through your teeth again :D
Sorry for remembering a conversation that happened a whole two days ago, I know that’s past your ability to recall.
Fascinating link. Watch me not saying anything of what you claim I support in there.
Illiterate and fascist. A not-uncommon combination.
Genocide supporter and a liar. The usual combination.
Keep supporting Holodomor denial; we all know genocide apologism is your favorite thing to asspat. And keep upvoting Uyghur Genocide denial too - would hate for you to miss out on that feeling of smug contrarianism over the murder of minorities by red fascists, because it gets one over on “the libs” (here meaning anyone who doesn’t support red fascist genocides)
I’ll provide a lot of context later on; I have a busy few days, so I’ll be unavailable to engage in fedidrama.
Unlike tankies and apologists, I’ll supply full context, with absolutely everything.
tl;dr: Tankie bar.
Summarised version for now:
Db0 users and admins have been continuously defending tankies on my anti-tankie community, [email protected]. They also host tankies such as Devals, who is a lemmy.ml admin. They also host open antisemites.
Their community, [email protected], is good in concept, but in practice ends up being a snark community where they attack the moderator based on political views as opposed to whether or not the user broke the rules. Case in point, the user denied genocide, was temporarily banned, yet their snark community flocked to their defence and engaged in more genocide denialism. Any attempts of explanation and communication was met with ridicule and slander.
They then brigade, calling me, my community and random users nazis and fascists. They say it’s because one user, just one, uses ‘degenerate’ and ‘roach’ to refer to tankies. I counter, I supply evidence, I explain that tankies also use dehumanising language and as does db0’s instance, yet we get banned. So I banned them back.
If we’re nazis because one user used the word degenerate and roach, then they’re tankies for, you know, defending actual tankies lol
Perhaps this is all just a misunderstanding, perhaps it’s a series of coincidences or happenstances. But from my perspective, I got sick of their trolling and called out their hypocrisy.
From @[email protected] , Saturday 30th August 3:45 PM GMT+02
Since then (Saturday 30th August 3:45 PM GMT+02):
Calling out hypocrisy, based on the posts above, doesn’t look the most genuine.
Note about another db0 admin clarification
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/21109507
Just going to add another post discussing this; I did a write-up of the constant use of ‘degenerate’ as an insult specifically in the MoG comm, posted on hexbear, and cited the inciting incident as the latest people to get dubbed ‘tankies’ by this crew.
It’s a fascist dogwhistle, especially the way its use is normalized on MoG. Their specialty is in turning everyone they disagree with into a ‘tankie’ that can’t possibly have a point, and consequently all abuse is then fair game. Ironic that they immediately started trying to flip the script with accusations of ‘tankie bar’
It was pointed out that in that very fucking thread there was Holodomor and Uyghur genocide denial, which would make, by the same argument as the ‘Nazi bar’ accusations being leveled, DB0 a tankie bar.
Would you like to delve deeper into this?
If you legitimately think there’s a fascist infiltration of my community, then we’ll investigate it together
you could start by actually keeping your pet Nazis banned
ill add it to the post thank you
Thanks! the only correction I have is that I’m actually an anarchist, I feel like a broken record sometimes having to explain that.
It might be the constant defence of the PRC, the repeating of Russian propaganda on Ukraine, and simping for an instance that literally removes posts which point out genocide by fascist polities which are painted red, which cause people to correct identify you elsewise.
Believe it or not, passing your online purity tests about geopolitics is not what makes someone an anarchist.
Your use of ‘tankie’ is just ‘disagrees with me from the left’ and it’s been on full display.
as I said earlier:
Yes, it is quite apparently that you regard playing apologist for fascist states performing genocide as completely in-line with anarchism, bizarre as it is. I guess ‘purity testing’ is ‘questioning whether simping for fascism is really compatible with anarchist thought’, especially considering that you openly support .ml’s removal of anything critical of fascist states.
Ah, so defending genocide is a leftist position now. It must be the People’s Genocide.
Wild how every argument with you speedruns straight to hyper-fixating on what Americas enemies are doing.
I would never play apologist for the fascist states of America and their genocidal war on the Palestinian people, You were the one spending all your energy browbeating everyone expressing disgust with genocide Joe and bomber Harris.
Funny hearing lectures on “what anarchism is” from a social democrat who’s more interested in purity testing leftists on lemmy than building anything outside the ballot box.
The argument here is literally about the Uyghur genocide, but nice try to whataboutism it around to your Americentric obsession.
I love how here you completely avoid the accusation in favor of whataboutism.
America is going down a very fascist path and supporting Israel’s genocide of Palestine. Sadly, you think that somehow justifies playing apologist for China going down a fascist path and genociding Uyghurs, or the genocide of Ukrainians.
I guess it’s GOOD genocide, unlike Israel’s BAD genocide!
Building parallel systems is something that I’ve repeatedly praised on here, but I understand that that’s inconvenient to your interest in attempting to paint me as trying to ‘purity test’ by insisting that genocide and fascism is Bad, Actually.
Keep licking boots, fascist, it’s all you’re capable of, apparently.
Dude explicitly doesn’t want to build anything outside the ballot box. In fact, he considers any alternative than capitalist liberal democracy as “fascism” and would support even violent paramilitary suppression of such. No matter what it is.
He clearly has the Fukuyama brainworms.
(I kid, thanks for the correction)
I recall back over a decade ago when trolling fascist dickheads at /pol/, I called on my inner cantankerous, old man to ridicule their illiberal views and started calling them backward degenerates trying to set society back to the dark ages. With their scant vocabulary, they went agog with astonishment at this new word and went
Then they became absorbed with that word & brought it back from old man parlance into their common sayings with degenerate this & degenerate that. They couldn’t get enough of it.
Believe me or not, point is it wasn’t always a dog whistle, it has been used to criticize the pieces of shit using it as a dog whistle for being that very thing they purport to oppose, and it still can be used that way. Nothing stops anyone else from claiming it back.
It was used to describe indigenous people of Africa and America to promote eugenics (at least to the 19th century).
It was popularized by the Nazis as a specifically far right term, to describe anything that didnt meet Nazi ideals.
When its used to discuss culture (art, religion, etc) or traits of a person (sexuality, race, gender expression, etc), its a really blatant dog whistle.
Like everything, context matters, but it absolutely has been one for a very long time.
While those specific people might legit not have known the word, it has been in common parlance in right-wing and fascist circles for decades.