But no, we can’t plan out and try out a new or better system, because we might hurt poor old capitalism’s feelings. Won’t somebody think of the billionaires?
So they are literally forced labour camps? How can anyone in the US still complain about Russia? (Just as a disclaimer, this is not a defence of Russia. I think the conditions there are terrible, but the US doesn’t seem far behind, if at all)
IIRC, unless you’re lucky enough to have someone outside of jail putting money into your commissary, you kind of have to if you want half decent living conditions.
Want more shampoo or feminine hygiene products? You have to buy them. Want more food than you were alotted? You have to buy it. It even includes things like toothpaste.
Prison colonies in Russia are indeed worse than in USA. People die from sickness and malnutrition there who’d come there healthy. And, of course, because of beatings with broken bones etc which somehow nobody knows about until the prisoner dies.
Things like rape and unofficial hierarchy seem to exist in US prisons too, but in general seems just uncomparable.
Source is living in Russia for 27 years and talking to people, also reading stuff from various leaks etc. And obviously mass media. If you are asking about Russia.
If you are asking about USA, then my only sources are mass media and Reddit.
The US has way better propaganda - the marketing strategies invented in the 60s by the nephew of Freud were put to very good use at bypassing people’s reasoning and not just at making them feel needs, fears, and short-term endorphine jolts related to products and services being sold.
Also the US has way better circus and more bread than Russia.
Where he crossed the line was in helping Chelsea Manning to bypass security mechanisms to get access to documents she would not have otherwise had access to. Otherwise, you would have had a situation much like The New York Times and the Pentagon Papers where the US government was constrained by the First Amendment.
It’s definitely going to be the far right who will throw people into camps if we get there. The most far left politicians in the US rarely if ever advocate targeting individual right wingers, but I can name a few far right politicians with substantial followings that suggested punishing people who disagree with them. I don’t have a lot of love for democratic politicians in the US but they don’t seem like a possible near term threat to people’s safety, they just won’t stand in the way of the people who are.
I think we’ve seen how far the Democrats will go down the authoritarianism path during the lockdowns, which was horrific and corrupt, but you’re right, it’s not nearly as bad as what the stupid fucking Republicans will do if they get their way next year.
How far did they even go? Forcing people to stay home and wear masks during a pandemic is not the same as saying you want to exile leftists(which FYI trump did say). They are not equivalent and being unaware of that is dangerous.
They forced people to accept vaccines they didn’t want under pain of losing their jobs.
Which is inherently destructive and abusive to the working class.
Actually shit like that is what empowered dipshits like DeSantis and Abbott, and why Florida and Texas are so especially hard-nosed against the Democrats and left-wing culture in general.
The left doesn’t want to admit that what they did was wrong, which will keep them from being able to win over enough moderates to stop the right, so I suspect the right will ultimately win and impose their horrific flavor of authoritarianism on the rest of us.
The LGBTQ+ community, women and minorities will suffer the most. Especially the kids. They’re the ones I feel the worst for.
Also, let me be clear that I am not drawing any kind of equivalency; actually my point is that Democrats at their worst (which we saw the past few years) is not as bad as the Republicans at their worst is going to be, and it’s partly Democrats’ fault for empowering the hard right by giving them something legitimate to oppose.
“Most far left politicians”? We don’t have any real far left politicians. All we have are lefty wannbes who just care about furthering their careers within the Democratic party.
We need a third party and we need it now. A party that holds true leftist values and not what the democrats claim to support. We have had enough lip service by the so called leftists in the Democratic party.
Y’all are making some weird arguments based on not much.
Let’s have a look at TB as a marker for prison population health. It will exist for a long time without killing someone and will spread quickly in poor conditions.
Cuz different rule sets apply to different parts of the world. That and the clever naming scheme the US usually applies to make things sound not as bad or marginably better than they actually are.
Of course i read the thread - you have to be aware of how absurd that question is from the outset. And no, they didn’t support anyone claiming this is not the fault of capitalism.
If your business depends on underpaid labor to profit (including slave labor or bonded servitude) then your business model sucks, and your business should fail.
And if you think you should be allowed to underpay your workers to keep your business afloat, then you’re an immoral capitalist and you should be ashamed.
If you mean “capitalism+slavery”, then yes, this is known to cause problems, hence all the civil rights efforts since Renaissance to make citizens roughly equal (even cut aristocracy a bit) and every resident a citizen.
I take solace in your downvotes that your opinions are unpopular and wrong and as such no one believes you. Look on the plus side, your brown nose covered in poo will protect you from the sun.
Just not allowing myself to behave like an envious little punk. I do see problems with the existing social systems, it’s just that being prevented from robbing those who have more is not a problem. It’s a very good design feature.
Not at all, just my parents, while not perfect, have taught me to work for myself and respect the rights of others and their independence.
As for you being envious, the existing system benefits you, you are not dying from hunger or doing unqualified labor under threat of a whip.
It’s not a system of distribution of some common good which fell from the sky and now has to be shared fairly. Nobody “feeds the 1%”, they use what they own.
Your parents who have given you not only opportunity of education but wealth
This system only benefits you. Born into wealth or a caste system
The meritocracy fiction is so pervasive but ultimately it is a fiction
Keep telling yourself you ‘deserve’ it though. That conscience needs supplication. Then get a passport and see how the rest of the world is doing. Experience poverty. I mean it. First hand. You will change.
I’d argue this guy probably had his original identity beaten out of him by his scumfuck parents and he resorted to adopting theirs to avoid violence from them, and that is why he thinks the way he does. And if true, he doesn’t really benefit from the system either, but is just a brainwashed victim of it.
So you are a capitalist then? You have capital? And the people that work for you give you their labour right?
Or maybe you are a worker. Who loves giving your labour to the company?
Lol seriously you sound like a child. Totally uneducated about how the system works but stanning for the rich asshats that run it cause maybe someday you too will be able to take their labour for your profit.
There’s no billionaire who didn’t steal from the hard work of others. Every billionaire is a scoundrel of some sort, a thug if you try to take their cash cow from them.
Dude obviously you are out of your league. Yes all profits are theft, you worked to make $100 profit for the company, they paid you $10, $90 is taken, it’s not hard. But even if you aren’t ready to learn about Marxism…
Walmart: Please, PLEASE defend the billionaires that own Wallmart…
#1 in stealing wages, yes, wage theft, actual theft. Please look it up. Even not considering Marxist ideas, just plain old theft of wages.
Their employees have to live on government handouts, IE: You are paying more in taxes because Wallmart won’t pay their employees a living wage… They’re stealing from you… Like, this isn’t hard.
Please use your brain. Bezos’ company bans their sellers from selling lower somewhere else, forcing a monopoly on low prices for Amazon. Those companies and people make less money… Like… C’mon, just because it isn’t illegal doesn’t mean it’s not theft. Also wage theft, Amazon commits massive wage theft…
Google steals your data.
Apple bans companies from repairing their products.
Oil companies literally cause problems in the middle east in order to control gas prices…
CEOs are making TONS of money off of… stealing… war… propaganda…
All of this creates more profits, and takes more money from you or their employees. Literally takes no effort to look this up. You are being contrarian for no reason. Or you are deliberately creating propaganda, because even if you don’t believe in Marxism, billionaires are still, easily, obviously, objectively, stealing…
It’s the same argument. These people are enslaved. The 13th amendment abolished slavery “except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted”.
Right-wing ideology consists out of a very limited selection of lies used to justify the power and privilege of a small elite - they vary the wording on it to suit a new target audience, but it’s always the same lies. There is nothing Ben Shapiro can say that I didn’t hear Apartheid-ideologues say back in the 80s - it’s just the surface details that vary. It’s pretty much the only thing there is to right-wing politics, really.
No, let’s condemn all the rotten ones. We as a world should not tolerate genocide. Fuck china and fuck any apologist. May their darkest nightmare become reality.
Why is it that all of your comments are anti-china and you have no comments critiquing other posts about negative things the USA has done? You’re saying let’s condemn all the rotten ones, but you seem to be condeming only a certain group of ones you think are rotten. I think you might be biased against China guy.
To be fair this is hardly a problem unique to western capitalism. Gulag labor in the USSR was widely acknowledged and documented. And there are likewise credible accusations of forced labor (and much worse) in China as well. It’s bad in every case, and intellectually honest observers would condemn this practice in every instance.
This isn’t capitalism or communism - it’s an autocracy and human rights issue. The places with the best criminal justice outcomes these days are generally the “third way socialism” eg Scandinavian model countries which have a blended version of regulated capitalism and wealth redistribution.
To be fair this is hardly a problem unique to western capitalism.
The majority of western capitalist countries DON’T have legal slave labour in their prison system (or anywhere). I’m pretty sure it’s actually only the USA
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Huh. So US would collapse without slave labour?
Btw, https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/
Well, actually, yes. Or without migrant labour which they are losing hence the child labour law issues recently. Study harder. You will get it.
Why so combative?
Your info is right, but the last two sentences are uncalled for.
Yeah your last comments seem like you have a chip on your shoulder.
This is not a meme…
Once you know how and why was the private prisons created or operate and “earn” their money you would be sad if not depressed…
I recommend watching a documentary on this topic.
 
what emoji did you use at the end there it’s blank to me
I don’t see one at the end of their comment, but they have a cherry blossom at the end of their display name if that’s what you meant?(not what you meant!)
there’s 3 emojis showing up as   (Object replacement characters) at the end of the reply text
Ahh I see. Or don’t, actually lol. It’s just blank for me, not showing the [obj] symbol
All 3 are U+FFFC when I copy what I can’t see from view source. Maybe an issue with a third-party app caused it…?
Your mom’s not a meme
Your meme’s not a mom
Both of our statements are factually accurate.
Some moms are memes.
All memes are pop culture.
True or false: all moms are pop culture
False. The set of moms that are pop culture is a strict subset of the set of moms.
Good, you’re not glitching yet and Project Castor can continue.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but you should really at least name a documentary and share some insight that it brings.
Using the same excuse slave owners in 1860 used isn’t a good look…
But no, we can’t plan out and try out a new or better system, because we might hurt poor old capitalism’s feelings. Won’t somebody think of the billionaires?
if they’d collapse without it then good riddance
Translation: “But… muh slaves!”
So they are literally forced labour camps? How can anyone in the US still complain about Russia? (Just as a disclaimer, this is not a defence of Russia. I think the conditions there are terrible, but the US doesn’t seem far behind, if at all)
IIRC, unless you’re lucky enough to have someone outside of jail putting money into your commissary, you kind of have to if you want half decent living conditions.
Want more shampoo or feminine hygiene products? You have to buy them. Want more food than you were alotted? You have to buy it. It even includes things like toothpaste.
It’s so horrifically abusable too. You can easily lose the “privilege” of slave labor just because someone felt like it or didn’t like your face.
Prison colonies in Russia are indeed worse than in USA. People die from sickness and malnutrition there who’d come there healthy. And, of course, because of beatings with broken bones etc which somehow nobody knows about until the prisoner dies.
Things like rape and unofficial hierarchy seem to exist in US prisons too, but in general seems just uncomparable.
But people die due to e.g. bad ventilation, missing cooling and failing disease control in the US too.
Just have a look at how great the US prison systems have handled Covid.
The mortality in US prisons is ~40% than in the general population, and that is not counting 2020, where it was ~60% higher.
I’m not arguing it’s bad, but really still not Russian levels.
Source? Is it Hollywood movies?
Source is living in Russia for 27 years and talking to people, also reading stuff from various leaks etc. And obviously mass media. If you are asking about Russia.
If you are asking about USA, then my only sources are mass media and Reddit.
Fair enough, I believe you.
The difference is, it’s often a news story when it happens in the US.
In Russia, it’s a Tuesday.
The US has way better propaganda - the marketing strategies invented in the 60s by the nephew of Freud were put to very good use at bypassing people’s reasoning and not just at making them feel needs, fears, and short-term endorphine jolts related to products and services being sold.
Also the US has way better circus and more bread than Russia.
Russia’s actively committing genocide and threatens nuclear war against anyone who directly intervenes, so there’s that.
I agree with you though. The U.S. is just a third world country with a nice coat of paint at this point.
Russia is a terrible place as is, but the US is too.
Regarding the 3rd world country: That is totally true.
And in Russia, they toss people in prison for disagreeing with the state, so there’s that.
Assange?
Criticize the US all you want, but he didn’t get targeted for disagreeing with the state.
He published evidence of US war crimes and is being persecuted for it. How is that not disagreeing with the state?
Where he crossed the line was in helping Chelsea Manning to bypass security mechanisms to get access to documents she would not have otherwise had access to. Otherwise, you would have had a situation much like The New York Times and the Pentagon Papers where the US government was constrained by the First Amendment.
They’re gonna start doing that here soon, when either one camp or another takes control of state or federal governments.
Fucking Florida bans books now. 🤦
It’s definitely going to be the far right who will throw people into camps if we get there. The most far left politicians in the US rarely if ever advocate targeting individual right wingers, but I can name a few far right politicians with substantial followings that suggested punishing people who disagree with them. I don’t have a lot of love for democratic politicians in the US but they don’t seem like a possible near term threat to people’s safety, they just won’t stand in the way of the people who are.
I think we’ve seen how far the Democrats will go down the authoritarianism path during the lockdowns, which was horrific and corrupt, but you’re right, it’s not nearly as bad as what the stupid fucking Republicans will do if they get their way next year.
How far did they even go? Forcing people to stay home and wear masks during a pandemic is not the same as saying you want to exile leftists(which FYI trump did say). They are not equivalent and being unaware of that is dangerous.
They forced people to accept vaccines they didn’t want under pain of losing their jobs.
Which is inherently destructive and abusive to the working class.
Actually shit like that is what empowered dipshits like DeSantis and Abbott, and why Florida and Texas are so especially hard-nosed against the Democrats and left-wing culture in general.
The left doesn’t want to admit that what they did was wrong, which will keep them from being able to win over enough moderates to stop the right, so I suspect the right will ultimately win and impose their horrific flavor of authoritarianism on the rest of us.
The LGBTQ+ community, women and minorities will suffer the most. Especially the kids. They’re the ones I feel the worst for.
Also, let me be clear that I am not drawing any kind of equivalency; actually my point is that Democrats at their worst (which we saw the past few years) is not as bad as the Republicans at their worst is going to be, and it’s partly Democrats’ fault for empowering the hard right by giving them something legitimate to oppose.
“Most far left politicians”? We don’t have any real far left politicians. All we have are lefty wannbes who just care about furthering their careers within the Democratic party. We need a third party and we need it now. A party that holds true leftist values and not what the democrats claim to support. We have had enough lip service by the so called leftists in the Democratic party.
Y’all are making some weird arguments based on not much.
Let’s have a look at TB as a marker for prison population health. It will exist for a long time without killing someone and will spread quickly in poor conditions.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(21)00049-9/fulltext
Now I accept the argument on relative abundance of TB and would welcome an alternative marker.
Cuz different rule sets apply to different parts of the world. That and the clever naming scheme the US usually applies to make things sound not as bad or marginably better than they actually are.
And it seems to have worked on you too since you agreed above that it actually has nothing to do with capitalism.
I never said it has anything to do with capitalism.
Did you reply to the wrong person? The person you replied to didn’t mention capitalism.
Did you actually read the thread? Because they supported a reply that did earlier.
Of course i read the thread - you have to be aware of how absurd that question is from the outset. And no, they didn’t support anyone claiming this is not the fault of capitalism.
The naming schemes he’s talking about are taken from marketing.
If your business depends on underpaid labor to profit (including slave labor or bonded servitude) then your business model sucks, and your business should fail.
And if you think you should be allowed to underpay your workers to keep your business afloat, then you’re an immoral capitalist and you should be ashamed.
My brain interpreted the post title being sung to the tune of CREAM by Wu-Tang
I believe that was the intent.
Oh cool! I’m not great at interpreting intent like that, thanks
State prisons are not part of “capitalism”.
If you mean “capitalism+slavery”, then yes, this is known to cause problems, hence all the civil rights efforts since Renaissance to make citizens roughly equal (even cut aristocracy a bit) and every resident a citizen.
I take solace in your downvotes that your opinions are unpopular and wrong and as such no one believes you. Look on the plus side, your brown nose covered in poo will protect you from the sun.
Irrelevant obviously.
Doesn’t follow from downvotes. It’s obvious, again. Votes don’t support statements.
Irrelevant, unless my goal was to make someone believe into something. It wasn’t.
Also there’s no poo anywhere around me and it’s raining, which is quite pleasant after such heat. But thank you for your good wishes.
I am very smart dot jpg
Just not allowing myself to behave like an envious little punk. I do see problems with the existing social systems, it’s just that being prevented from robbing those who have more is not a problem. It’s a very good design feature.
Envious? Ok so you are born into wealth. Nice.
Such meritocracy! Best system ever! Arrest the poor and feed the 1% because they earned it lol
Not at all, just my parents, while not perfect, have taught me to work for myself and respect the rights of others and their independence.
As for you being envious, the existing system benefits you, you are not dying from hunger or doing unqualified labor under threat of a whip.
It’s not a system of distribution of some common good which fell from the sky and now has to be shared fairly. Nobody “feeds the 1%”, they use what they own.
Everybody in America does labor under the threat of a whip unless they’re an unemployed adult hanging out in the boonies somewhere.
Your parents who have given you not only opportunity of education but wealth
This system only benefits you. Born into wealth or a caste system
The meritocracy fiction is so pervasive but ultimately it is a fiction
Keep telling yourself you ‘deserve’ it though. That conscience needs supplication. Then get a passport and see how the rest of the world is doing. Experience poverty. I mean it. First hand. You will change.
I’d argue this guy probably had his original identity beaten out of him by his scumfuck parents and he resorted to adopting theirs to avoid violence from them, and that is why he thinks the way he does. And if true, he doesn’t really benefit from the system either, but is just a brainwashed victim of it.
WTF? You think everybody not running around with leftist bullshit is rich?
Oh, wow.
I happen to live in that “rest of the world”, LOL.
I change all the time with experience, that’s why I despise those who don’t and instead whine how somebody has better toys than them.
So you are a capitalist then? You have capital? And the people that work for you give you their labour right?
Or maybe you are a worker. Who loves giving your labour to the company?
Lol seriously you sound like a child. Totally uneducated about how the system works but stanning for the rich asshats that run it cause maybe someday you too will be able to take their labour for your profit.
It’s a suckers game my friend.
There’s no billionaire who didn’t steal from the hard work of others. Every billionaire is a scoundrel of some sort, a thug if you try to take their cash cow from them.
Name a billionaire who has stolen from you or somebody you know and describe how.
Arguably almost all of them since they all seem to engage in some unethical behavior or another for profit.
A better question is to name which ones haven’t.
This should make it even easier for you to name one.
Dude obviously you are out of your league. Yes all profits are theft, you worked to make $100 profit for the company, they paid you $10, $90 is taken, it’s not hard. But even if you aren’t ready to learn about Marxism…
Walmart: Please, PLEASE defend the billionaires that own Wallmart… #1 in stealing wages, yes, wage theft, actual theft. Please look it up. Even not considering Marxist ideas, just plain old theft of wages. Their employees have to live on government handouts, IE: You are paying more in taxes because Wallmart won’t pay their employees a living wage… They’re stealing from you… Like, this isn’t hard.
Please use your brain. Bezos’ company bans their sellers from selling lower somewhere else, forcing a monopoly on low prices for Amazon. Those companies and people make less money… Like… C’mon, just because it isn’t illegal doesn’t mean it’s not theft. Also wage theft, Amazon commits massive wage theft…
Google steals your data.
Apple bans companies from repairing their products.
Oil companies literally cause problems in the middle east in order to control gas prices…
CEOs are making TONS of money off of… stealing… war… propaganda…
All of this creates more profits, and takes more money from you or their employees. Literally takes no effort to look this up. You are being contrarian for no reason. Or you are deliberately creating propaganda, because even if you don’t believe in Marxism, billionaires are still, easily, obviously, objectively, stealing…
Keep sucking that boot my friend maybe someday it will give you a real personality
I prefer giving the boot. Sadly no communist is verbose enough in person to take it.
No you just are uneducated. But maybe you’ll get exposed to ideas other than the ones that say LET’S USE PRISONERS TO GENERATE WEALTH FOR THE 1%
So it’s just “we can’t abolish slavery because it will hurt all the poor slave-owners” but modernized.
It’s the same argument. These people are enslaved. The 13th amendment abolished slavery “except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted”.
I would argue that it’s not even modernized. It’s just the same argument.
Right-wing ideology consists out of a very limited selection of lies used to justify the power and privilege of a small elite - they vary the wording on it to suit a new target audience, but it’s always the same lies. There is nothing Ben Shapiro can say that I didn’t hear Apartheid-ideologues say back in the 80s - it’s just the surface details that vary. It’s pretty much the only thing there is to right-wing politics, really.
Guys but China is the bad one!!%(+%!
They are bad, yes.
There can be 2 bad guys.
True, they’re all bad lets focus on the countries we live in.
No, let’s condemn all the rotten ones. We as a world should not tolerate genocide. Fuck china and fuck any apologist. May their darkest nightmare become reality.
Why is it that all of your comments are anti-china and you have no comments critiquing other posts about negative things the USA has done? You’re saying let’s condemn all the rotten ones, but you seem to be condeming only a certain group of ones you think are rotten. I think you might be biased against China guy.
Also, I don’t think they are rotten. They are committing genocide. I KNOW they are rotten.
I just happen to have a lot of china dick suckers in my feed today. Wish I could block you lemmy.ml guys, fascist cocksuckers.
Why did you bring up China at all?
Translation: Slavery has always been legal in the US.
To be fair this is hardly a problem unique to western capitalism. Gulag labor in the USSR was widely acknowledged and documented. And there are likewise credible accusations of forced labor (and much worse) in China as well. It’s bad in every case, and intellectually honest observers would condemn this practice in every instance.
This isn’t capitalism or communism - it’s an autocracy and human rights issue. The places with the best criminal justice outcomes these days are generally the “third way socialism” eg Scandinavian model countries which have a blended version of regulated capitalism and wealth redistribution.
It’s the state using the labor of people for its own profit and the profit of its cronies. Capitalism has nothing to do with it.
What do you mean was? It still is.
USSR no longer exists is why he said was, but Russia probably still does it yeah
USSR still exists. I don’t care they call themselves something different now.
The majority of western capitalist countries DON’T have legal slave labour in their prison system (or anywhere). I’m pretty sure it’s actually only the USA
That’s why I’m never letting my kids move out. I too enjoy the benefits of slave labor
Starting to wonder why Russia doesn’t have them.
You don’t need to dress up your slave labour as “prison” when you can just have out and open slave labour.
Pretty lame deflection
They don’t need to because their concept of law is very flexible for the right people.