This sentiment would only apply to fictional people in fairytales. I.e. criminals break laws because they are themselves bad and good honest people would never require being imprisoned in the first place. In this hypothetical good/evil then maximum punishment for the evil makes sense. The problem is that real people are more complex than that and so the punishment you are proposing is not proportional to the crimes committed. I know its easier to not have to consider all the variables in every case and just proclaim “to hell with them all!” and call it a day but I hope that we are all not so desperate that we can’t take the time to think about the issues and make a balanced (but more complex) opinion.
All legal systems are inherently unjust and incapable of actually holding evil people responsible for their actions. Most people in jail don’t actually belong in there and, quite frankly, it’d be far more humane to kill anyone who actually does than to use them to keep the institution of slavery going.
If your business depends on underpaid labor to profit (including slave labor or bonded servitude) then your business model sucks, and your business should fail.
And if you think you should be allowed to underpay your workers to keep your business afloat, then you’re an immoral capitalist and you should be ashamed.
Slavery, Prison labour, migrant labour that you can totally rip off and not pay, and lastly child labour. That’s what’s propping up the economy at this point…
Slavery is a strict outcome of unregulated capitalism. That’s literally where “classical” slavery originated. Money gave slavers power, and they used that power to abduct people into slavery which made the slavers money.
Better veiled versions of that plopped up all through the centuries past slavery (and before that) as well. Factory towns were exactly that as well. You worked in the factory/mine and instead of money you received company vouchers as income. These vouchers you could only spend in the company shops and company housing. So if you tried to leave the company, you had nothing. And since they could essentially charge you whatever they wanted, they’d make sure you earned less than what you needed to survive, so that you’d rack up debts while working there. So if you left, you were forced to pay your debts, and if you couldn’t (and you really couldn’t in most cases), you’d just go to prison, and be forced to work in the mine/factory anyway.
Completely unregulated capitalist sectors (e.g. the mafia) use the same exact system to this day.
Have, for example, a look at human trafficing rings.
It doesn’t get much more Capitalist than maximizing profitability by minimizing manpower expenses and there really is nothing in the Capitalist ideology about the methods of doing so which involve the use of force to make people work for free not being allowed, quite the contrary (it’s all about how businesses should be free, not people)
Capitalism has nothing at all about Morality, which is something that always came from outside it, be it traditional Conservative Family Values and Religion or the various The Greatest Good For The Greatest Number theories from the left (some genuine, others hypocrite).
The Everybody For Themselves that Capitalism promotes is actually the moral of the Sociopath (in the Psychology sense of zero consideration for others, not in the movie sense of evil-doing for the pleasure of it which is ridiculously off).
Not really, since slavery is the ultimate expression of underregulated capitalism.
If you think American corporations don’t exploit penal slavery and wouldn’t be doing outright chattel slavery if they were allowed to, you’re just too naive.
The only thing capitalism loves more than slavery is prison labour. Next up ‘undocumented’ labour that can be easily exploited. What’s next? Oh yes. Child labour.
I wrote it’s not wrong but the criticism is wrongly addressed. What you wrote is known and that’s why regulations exit. And still we have this kind of slavery. Don’t give your regulators a pass here.
I’m not giving anyone a pass. Just because “regulations exist” doesn’t mean that all the necessary ones do or that it’s because pro-regulation people don’t want it. Ever heard of regulatory capture?
They don’t call it the Prison Industrial Complex for nothing. It’s just as insidious and powerful as the MIC.
Sure, regulators are forced to fix it, but only because unregulated capitalism is completely broken. Capitalism itself is the festering wound, regulation is the band-aid that we stick onto it, to make it not leak bile over the part of the floor that we care about.
So they are literally forced labour camps? How can anyone in the US still complain about Russia? (Just as a disclaimer, this is not a defence of Russia. I think the conditions there are terrible, but the US doesn’t seem far behind, if at all)
The US has way better propaganda - the marketing strategies invented in the 60s by the nephew of Freud were put to very good use at bypassing people’s reasoning and not just at making them feel needs, fears, and short-term endorphine jolts related to products and services being sold.
Also the US has way better circus and more bread than Russia.
Cuz different rule sets apply to different parts of the world. That and the clever naming scheme the US usually applies to make things sound not as bad or marginably better than they actually are.
Of course i read the thread - you have to be aware of how absurd that question is from the outset. And no, they didn’t support anyone claiming this is not the fault of capitalism.
It’s definitely going to be the far right who will throw people into camps if we get there. The most far left politicians in the US rarely if ever advocate targeting individual right wingers, but I can name a few far right politicians with substantial followings that suggested punishing people who disagree with them. I don’t have a lot of love for democratic politicians in the US but they don’t seem like a possible near term threat to people’s safety, they just won’t stand in the way of the people who are.
I think we’ve seen how far the Democrats will go down the authoritarianism path during the lockdowns, which was horrific and corrupt, but you’re right, it’s not nearly as bad as what the stupid fucking Republicans will do if they get their way next year.
How far did they even go? Forcing people to stay home and wear masks during a pandemic is not the same as saying you want to exile leftists(which FYI trump did say). They are not equivalent and being unaware of that is dangerous.
They forced people to accept vaccines they didn’t want under pain of losing their jobs.
Which is inherently destructive and abusive to the working class.
Actually shit like that is what empowered dipshits like DeSantis and Abbott, and why Florida and Texas are so especially hard-nosed against the Democrats and left-wing culture in general.
The left doesn’t want to admit that what they did was wrong, which will keep them from being able to win over enough moderates to stop the right, so I suspect the right will ultimately win and impose their horrific flavor of authoritarianism on the rest of us.
The LGBTQ+ community, women and minorities will suffer the most. Especially the kids. They’re the ones I feel the worst for.
Also, let me be clear that I am not drawing any kind of equivalency; actually my point is that Democrats at their worst (which we saw the past few years) is not as bad as the Republicans at their worst is going to be, and it’s partly Democrats’ fault for empowering the hard right by giving them something legitimate to oppose.
“Most far left politicians”? We don’t have any real far left politicians. All we have are lefty wannbes who just care about furthering their careers within the Democratic party.
We need a third party and we need it now. A party that holds true leftist values and not what the democrats claim to support. We have had enough lip service by the so called leftists in the Democratic party.
Where he crossed the line was in helping Chelsea Manning to bypass security mechanisms to get access to documents she would not have otherwise had access to. Otherwise, you would have had a situation much like The New York Times and the Pentagon Papers where the US government was constrained by the First Amendment.
IIRC, unless you’re lucky enough to have someone outside of jail putting money into your commissary, you kind of have to if you want half decent living conditions.
Want more shampoo or feminine hygiene products? You have to buy them. Want more food than you were alotted? You have to buy it. It even includes things like toothpaste.
Y’all are making some weird arguments based on not much.
Let’s have a look at TB as a marker for prison population health. It will exist for a long time without killing someone and will spread quickly in poor conditions.
Prison colonies in Russia are indeed worse than in USA. People die from sickness and malnutrition there who’d come there healthy. And, of course, because of beatings with broken bones etc which somehow nobody knows about until the prisoner dies.
Things like rape and unofficial hierarchy seem to exist in US prisons too, but in general seems just uncomparable.
Source is living in Russia for 27 years and talking to people, also reading stuff from various leaks etc. And obviously mass media. If you are asking about Russia.
If you are asking about USA, then my only sources are mass media and Reddit.
That’s slavery/indentured servitude forcing someone into a contract. How is that Adam Smith capitalism? It’s just old school wealthy upper class exploiting people.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: [email protected]
Rules:
Be civil and nice.
Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
Did you intend to post this on a meme c/? Seems like the wrong place
removed by mod
Are you implying that everyone with a prison sentence is a rapist who should be worked to death? ooof. big ooof
If genuine, you are drunk on schadenfreude.
Is this sarcasm or are you just a horrible person?
This sentiment would only apply to fictional people in fairytales. I.e. criminals break laws because they are themselves bad and good honest people would never require being imprisoned in the first place. In this hypothetical good/evil then maximum punishment for the evil makes sense. The problem is that real people are more complex than that and so the punishment you are proposing is not proportional to the crimes committed. I know its easier to not have to consider all the variables in every case and just proclaim “to hell with them all!” and call it a day but I hope that we are all not so desperate that we can’t take the time to think about the issues and make a balanced (but more complex) opinion.
Lmfao at the mental gymnastics you’re using to make yourself feel better about slavery, as if rapists go to jail…
Ever watched the Shawshank redemption?
What an utterly despicable person you are, what the hell is this bullshit.
All legal systems are inherently unjust and incapable of actually holding evil people responsible for their actions. Most people in jail don’t actually belong in there and, quite frankly, it’d be far more humane to kill anyone who actually does than to use them to keep the institution of slavery going.
If your business depends on underpaid labor to profit (including slave labor or bonded servitude) then your business model sucks, and your business should fail.
And if you think you should be allowed to underpay your workers to keep your business afloat, then you’re an immoral capitalist and you should be ashamed.
My brain interpreted the post title being sung to the tune of CREAM by Wu-Tang
I believe that was the intent.
Oh cool! I’m not great at interpreting intent like that, thanks
If your community knowingly depends on slavery then your community probably deserves to collapse
Do you think the workers of the community can compete on wages with literal slaves? Slavery destroys working people, even those who are “free”.
Not community. Economy.
Slavery, Prison labour, migrant labour that you can totally rip off and not pay, and lastly child labour. That’s what’s propping up the economy at this point…
That sounds an awful fucking lot like some of the rationale the confederates used around the time of the civil war.
Yeah, I thought that reasoning sounded familiar!
Huh. So US would collapse without slave labour?
Btw, https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/
Well, actually, yes. Or without migrant labour which they are losing hence the child labour law issues recently. Study harder. You will get it.
Your info is right, but the last two sentences are uncalled for.
Yeah your last comments seem like you have a chip on your shoulder.
Why so combative?
Translation: “But… muh slaves!”
It’s not wrong but a bit of a stretch to criticize capitalism for what is actually slavery.
lmfao, I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics you have to do to separate the two… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex
Slavery is a strict outcome of unregulated capitalism. That’s literally where “classical” slavery originated. Money gave slavers power, and they used that power to abduct people into slavery which made the slavers money.
Better veiled versions of that plopped up all through the centuries past slavery (and before that) as well. Factory towns were exactly that as well. You worked in the factory/mine and instead of money you received company vouchers as income. These vouchers you could only spend in the company shops and company housing. So if you tried to leave the company, you had nothing. And since they could essentially charge you whatever they wanted, they’d make sure you earned less than what you needed to survive, so that you’d rack up debts while working there. So if you left, you were forced to pay your debts, and if you couldn’t (and you really couldn’t in most cases), you’d just go to prison, and be forced to work in the mine/factory anyway.
Completely unregulated capitalist sectors (e.g. the mafia) use the same exact system to this day.
Have, for example, a look at human trafficing rings.
It doesn’t get much more Capitalist than maximizing profitability by minimizing manpower expenses and there really is nothing in the Capitalist ideology about the methods of doing so which involve the use of force to make people work for free not being allowed, quite the contrary (it’s all about how businesses should be free, not people)
Capitalism has nothing at all about Morality, which is something that always came from outside it, be it traditional Conservative Family Values and Religion or the various The Greatest Good For The Greatest Number theories from the left (some genuine, others hypocrite).
The Everybody For Themselves that Capitalism promotes is actually the moral of the Sociopath (in the Psychology sense of zero consideration for others, not in the movie sense of evil-doing for the pleasure of it which is ridiculously off).
Not really, since slavery is the ultimate expression of underregulated capitalism.
If you think American corporations don’t exploit penal slavery and wouldn’t be doing outright chattel slavery if they were allowed to, you’re just too naive.
The only thing capitalism loves more than slavery is prison labour. Next up ‘undocumented’ labour that can be easily exploited. What’s next? Oh yes. Child labour.
Perfect system
I wrote it’s not wrong but the criticism is wrongly addressed. What you wrote is known and that’s why regulations exit. And still we have this kind of slavery. Don’t give your regulators a pass here.
I’m not giving anyone a pass. Just because “regulations exist” doesn’t mean that all the necessary ones do or that it’s because pro-regulation people don’t want it. Ever heard of regulatory capture?
They don’t call it the Prison Industrial Complex for nothing. It’s just as insidious and powerful as the MIC.
Sure, regulators are forced to fix it, but only because unregulated capitalism is completely broken. Capitalism itself is the festering wound, regulation is the band-aid that we stick onto it, to make it not leak bile over the part of the floor that we care about.
My thoughts as well.
I’m not seeing how it’s a stretch to criticize capitalism when someone says they don’t want to get rid of slavery because “think of the economy!”
@Ensign_Crab @Dnn “Who would do these jobs if people possibly wrongfully convicted weren’t forced to do these jobs?”
So they are literally forced labour camps? How can anyone in the US still complain about Russia? (Just as a disclaimer, this is not a defence of Russia. I think the conditions there are terrible, but the US doesn’t seem far behind, if at all)
The US has way better propaganda - the marketing strategies invented in the 60s by the nephew of Freud were put to very good use at bypassing people’s reasoning and not just at making them feel needs, fears, and short-term endorphine jolts related to products and services being sold.
Also the US has way better circus and more bread than Russia.
Cuz different rule sets apply to different parts of the world. That and the clever naming scheme the US usually applies to make things sound not as bad or marginably better than they actually are.
And it seems to have worked on you too since you agreed above that it actually has nothing to do with capitalism.
Did you reply to the wrong person? The person you replied to didn’t mention capitalism.
Did you actually read the thread? Because they supported a reply that did earlier.
Of course i read the thread - you have to be aware of how absurd that question is from the outset. And no, they didn’t support anyone claiming this is not the fault of capitalism.
I never said it has anything to do with capitalism.
The naming schemes he’s talking about are taken from marketing.
Russia’s actively committing genocide and threatens nuclear war against anyone who directly intervenes, so there’s that.
I agree with you though. The U.S. is just a third world country with a nice coat of paint at this point.
Russia is a terrible place as is, but the US is too.
Regarding the 3rd world country: That is totally true.
And in Russia, they toss people in prison for disagreeing with the state, so there’s that.
They’re gonna start doing that here soon, when either one camp or another takes control of state or federal governments.
Fucking Florida bans books now. 🤦
It’s definitely going to be the far right who will throw people into camps if we get there. The most far left politicians in the US rarely if ever advocate targeting individual right wingers, but I can name a few far right politicians with substantial followings that suggested punishing people who disagree with them. I don’t have a lot of love for democratic politicians in the US but they don’t seem like a possible near term threat to people’s safety, they just won’t stand in the way of the people who are.
I think we’ve seen how far the Democrats will go down the authoritarianism path during the lockdowns, which was horrific and corrupt, but you’re right, it’s not nearly as bad as what the stupid fucking Republicans will do if they get their way next year.
How far did they even go? Forcing people to stay home and wear masks during a pandemic is not the same as saying you want to exile leftists(which FYI trump did say). They are not equivalent and being unaware of that is dangerous.
They forced people to accept vaccines they didn’t want under pain of losing their jobs.
Which is inherently destructive and abusive to the working class.
Actually shit like that is what empowered dipshits like DeSantis and Abbott, and why Florida and Texas are so especially hard-nosed against the Democrats and left-wing culture in general.
The left doesn’t want to admit that what they did was wrong, which will keep them from being able to win over enough moderates to stop the right, so I suspect the right will ultimately win and impose their horrific flavor of authoritarianism on the rest of us.
The LGBTQ+ community, women and minorities will suffer the most. Especially the kids. They’re the ones I feel the worst for.
Also, let me be clear that I am not drawing any kind of equivalency; actually my point is that Democrats at their worst (which we saw the past few years) is not as bad as the Republicans at their worst is going to be, and it’s partly Democrats’ fault for empowering the hard right by giving them something legitimate to oppose.
“Most far left politicians”? We don’t have any real far left politicians. All we have are lefty wannbes who just care about furthering their careers within the Democratic party. We need a third party and we need it now. A party that holds true leftist values and not what the democrats claim to support. We have had enough lip service by the so called leftists in the Democratic party.
Assange?
Criticize the US all you want, but he didn’t get targeted for disagreeing with the state.
He published evidence of US war crimes and is being persecuted for it. How is that not disagreeing with the state?
Where he crossed the line was in helping Chelsea Manning to bypass security mechanisms to get access to documents she would not have otherwise had access to. Otherwise, you would have had a situation much like The New York Times and the Pentagon Papers where the US government was constrained by the First Amendment.
IIRC, unless you’re lucky enough to have someone outside of jail putting money into your commissary, you kind of have to if you want half decent living conditions.
Want more shampoo or feminine hygiene products? You have to buy them. Want more food than you were alotted? You have to buy it. It even includes things like toothpaste.
It’s so horrifically abusable too. You can easily lose the “privilege” of slave labor just because someone felt like it or didn’t like your face.
Y’all are making some weird arguments based on not much.
Let’s have a look at TB as a marker for prison population health. It will exist for a long time without killing someone and will spread quickly in poor conditions.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(21)00049-9/fulltext
Now I accept the argument on relative abundance of TB and would welcome an alternative marker.
Prison colonies in Russia are indeed worse than in USA. People die from sickness and malnutrition there who’d come there healthy. And, of course, because of beatings with broken bones etc which somehow nobody knows about until the prisoner dies.
Things like rape and unofficial hierarchy seem to exist in US prisons too, but in general seems just uncomparable.
But people die due to e.g. bad ventilation, missing cooling and failing disease control in the US too.
Just have a look at how great the US prison systems have handled Covid.
The mortality in US prisons is ~40% than in the general population, and that is not counting 2020, where it was ~60% higher.
I’m not arguing it’s bad, but really still not Russian levels.
Source? Is it Hollywood movies?
Source is living in Russia for 27 years and talking to people, also reading stuff from various leaks etc. And obviously mass media. If you are asking about Russia.
If you are asking about USA, then my only sources are mass media and Reddit.
Fair enough, I believe you.
The difference is, it’s often a news story when it happens in the US.
In Russia, it’s a Tuesday.
if they’d collapse without it then good riddance
what would happen if we cut out the middle man that’s making a shit ton of money on this?
This is not a meme…
Once you know how and why was the private prisons created or operate and “earn” their money you would be sad if not depressed…
I recommend watching a documentary on this topic.
 
I’m not disagreeing with you, but you should really at least name a documentary and share some insight that it brings.
what emoji did you use at the end there it’s blank to me
I don’t see one at the end of their comment, but they have a cherry blossom at the end of their display name if that’s what you meant?(not what you meant!)
there’s 3 emojis showing up as   (Object replacement characters) at the end of the reply text
Ahh I see. Or don’t, actually lol. It’s just blank for me, not showing the [obj] symbol
All 3 are U+FFFC when I copy what I can’t see from view source. Maybe an issue with a third-party app caused it…?
Your mom’s not a meme
Some moms are memes.
All memes are pop culture.
True or false: all moms are pop culture
False. The set of moms that are pop culture is a strict subset of the set of moms.
Good, you’re not glitching yet and Project Castor can continue.
Your meme’s not a mom
Both of our statements are factually accurate.
Wonder how many workers in those towns lose their jobs to slave labor from prisons, blame it on immigrants, and vote for demagogues
That’s slavery/indentured servitude forcing someone into a contract. How is that Adam Smith capitalism? It’s just old school wealthy upper class exploiting people.
We call that bonded servitude of which slavery is a subset.