Was this some dumbass saying dogs and cats can be fine with a vegan diet? Because that is 100% Grade A bullshit and the admin’s actions were justified.
Dogs can survive and thrive on a vegan diet, as long as it’s fairly carefully tailored; dogs are not obligate carnivores, and the essential amino acids that they can’t make themselves are available from non-animal sources.
Cats are obligate carnivores; the only natural source for at least one essential amino acid they need is meat. (I’m not sure which amino acid(s) it is, off the top of my head. Taurine? Lysine? Something else?) In theory you could heavily supplement a cat that was on a vegan diet and not kill it, but given that bioavailability of supplements isn’t the same as that of whole foods, I wouldn’t bet a life on it.
yeah because they’re such cruel fucking people, those heartless vegans abusing animals lol…
look man, I get it, you have bones with the veggies and the vegans and THIS IS THE ONE PLACE where you can get some kind of moral high ground on 'em, and you really want to rub it in their faces at every opportunity.
I don’t know who those vegans even are, the vast, vast majority of vegans I know are pet owners who feed their cats and their dogs kibble. None of them are trying to ‘convert’ their pets, and none of them look at pet ownership as ‘the enslavement of an animal for the purposes of ownership’.
all y’all need to fucking calm yoselfs. jfc, get a grip.
It’s kind of a huge deal if the mods of a community are working to promote disinformation that harms cats and censoring any dissenting opinion about it. I’d rather cats not be malnourished bc of a bunch of pissy vegans who want to force their ideology onto an animal that can’t handle it
I watched your video, and she makes a number of logical errors. She correctly identifies that cats need diets that are nutritionally complete, but then jumps to the conclusion that cats need to eat meat. They don’t. They need to consume the nutrients that have traditionally been found in meat. She overlooks that vegan cat foods are specifically designed to contain all these nutrients, thus making them nutritionally complete.
While I generally agree that vegans shouldn’t adopt cats if possible, Kitten Lady seems to be talking out of her ass.
For what it worth, the mods at vegan community are also deleting comment disagreeing with their point of view. It’s one thing to accuse rooki for power abuse, which i tend to agree as admin should be impartial to their ruling and not demote/remove based on emotion, but it’s ironic that the mod also did the exact same thing they accuse rooki for. Lesson here is, don’t fucking abuse power based on your emotion and then whine about it after losing that privilege. It’s a very highschool drama this one is.
Experiment on yourself all you want, but not your companion who depends on you. This is not a great subject to gather support from a larger audience with.
That being said, controversial subjects need to be discussed, not deleted. Nobody was intentionally trying to harm animals here. These actions don’t feel right
That’s not a strawman. You should review your knowledge of informal logical fallacies and be certain of their application before leveling accusations of them at people, even if you really disagree with them.
I don’t care what community we’re talking about, we’re discussing powermod/poweradmin here so i do care about the action of the mod and if you think just because you’re vegan you get to be exempted by common sense, then you’re mistaken. People are talking about food for pets, not for human consumption, it’s still a hot topic that you yourself said it’s less studied and can’t even be sure if it’s safe to do so, discussion amongst the community are needed, not swept under the rug. You guys are getting criticised here not because of being vegan, but because of the action you guys take, stop using veganism as your shield and looking like a bunch of imbecile.
People said veganism isn’t a religion but this looks more and more like one.
Well, I don’t feel strongly either way for the specific issue at hand but this is drama llama content for sure!
The cool part of the Fediverse, if this is an issue that fellow vegans can’t see eye to eye on, then we could have two communities, possibly on two instances. One which believes animal welfare means that domesticated animals shouldn’t participate in killing other animals, viewing it as unecessary and cruel, and the other community that doesn’t and only considers human nutrition choices, with the view that forcing change in domesticated animals’ diets as unnatural and cruel.
Like it or not, each server’s admins determine the shape of discussion and can make the final decisions on some items of discourse in situations like this, call it carnist, tankie, whatever pejorative of choosing. The recourse is to move elsewhere.
Well I don’t deny my dogs meat, so I’m not sure what you’re on about. Every week, I adopt a dog from the local shelter, kill it, butcher it, put it in the freezer, and serve my dogs their daily food from that. I’m not denying animals food at all. So what the hell is your problem with that?
They’re not being downvoted for their veganism, they’re being downvoted for their defence of animal abuse.
(Same reason the lemmy.world admin seems to have taken these actions; as much as I despise lemmy.world admins and their attempts to bring everything bad from reddit to lemmy, in this particular case they seem to have been in the right, if maybe excessively hamfisted as they tend to be).
I think @[email protected] owes an explanation and apology. It’s fine to be invested in animal welfare, but if one learns that one is factually incorrect, then admitting it openly is the mature and responsible thing to do.
We live in a day where a healthy diet can be fully synthesized, even for a human. I think the claim that a cat cannot flourish under one requires strict scrutiny and proper links to scientific articles demonstrating this finding.
edit: Because we do have evidence indicating such a diet is not harmful, so evidence that disputes this would need to exist.
edit2: Another thing that occured to me that may help shed light on this: Humans have to eat food in order to survive, yes?
No, actually. We can hook you up to an IV and keep you alive for as long as we need by pumping the necessary nutrients directly into your bloodstream, bypassing your digestive tract altogether. We call this intravenous feeding.
I had to be on IV feeding for a month last year and it felt like I was starving because I wasn’t getting any calories. I lost 20 kg in 2 weeks, despite the fact I was confined to a bed 24 hours.
What were you in for? Sounds to me like someone was pinching pennies on you, since there’s nothing stopping them from including the sugars and aminos your body needs.
Or maybe they thought you were overweight or something, but I’d think that’d be malpractice.
I am not convinced that depending on self-reporting of veterinary outcomes from people who are feeding their cat a vegan diet is a reliable way to structure the study
In fact, I would say that purely as a personal and anecdotal conclusion, I believe that the self reporting of an indistinguishable outcome from this study probably means that these vegan diets are harming the cats significantly, if the hidden factor of vegan-diet-feeding guardians underreporting bad outcomes were to be included.
Most of the health benefits reported for this group also did not reach statistical significance, which may be the result of simply not having enough animals in the study.
The authors reported a tendency towards positive effects of vegan diets. This means there was a general trend (which was sometimes strong), but doesn’t necessarily mean there is a very predictable relationship.
As a survey study, it’s not possible to confirm exactly what the cats were eating. Many of them went outside and may have hunted down meaty treats even while on a vegan diet. Some owners also fed their cats treats and essential nutrient supplements, so any beneficial effects (or a lack of harmful effects) may not be due to diet alone.
Another missing piece of information is how long the cats were kept on the diet. We might assume one year – but this isn’t specifically stated. This is important information since deficiency diseases can take time to develop.
Finally, any study assessing animal health will have inherent limitations if it’s designed as a survey. Pet owners usually aren’t medically trained and their “opinions” can be subjective and therefore biased.
Owners who had removed or reduced meat in their own diet were over-represented in the study. These people may already anticipate vegan diets are better for health, and this thinking could influence their responses.
It’s also worth noting the study was funded by ProVeg International – a food awareness organisation that promotes plant-based products. While this might not have impacted the validity of data, it could have influenced the stance taken when reporting on the results.
Figure 4 shows the age distribution of tested cats. Most vegan cats have been between 1-10 years while there were many meat fed cats up to 24 years old with a general distribution towards the older ages, while vegan cats drop off sharply after 10 years.
Also there were only 127 vegan cats out of the 1378 overall cats tested. That’s not a significant data set to draw definite conclusions from, especially considering how many old meat cats they lumped into the same pot as young vegan cats. At no point in the study do they clean up for age.
I don’t trust this study at all. That’s what you base the health and wellbeing of animals on?
I actually agree in general, but this is like the one time in recent memory I have felt like whole heartedly cheering on the Lemmy.world administration team
If some other instance wants to scoop up the animal abuse demographic now that they are ejected from .world, I think we will all survive
Even if that was true, you’re still killing other animals which is obviously more harmful/abusive to them than not giving them their favorite food instead of the same nutrients in a different package.
Yes, one animal dies to feed a different one. That’s how it has always been. Starving a pet because you don’t like the facts of life makes you a bad pet owner, nothing more. No moral highground, just abuse.
It’s not abuse to feed an animal a nutritionally complete diet. There is no magical nutrient that exists in animals that cannot be artificially synthesized. Just because you don’t care about animal suffering doesn’t make it necessary or justified.
I literally banned the lemmy world instance admin for saying otherwise, but they reversed it. “Owning” another animal is not vegan and is speciesist. I’ve only seen carnists go on about “vegan pet ownership”.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: [email protected]
Rules
Any drama must be posted as an observer, you cannot post drama that you are involved with.
When posting screenshots of drama, you must obscure the identity of all the participants.
The poster must have a credible post and comment history before submitting a piece of history. This is to avoid sock-puppetry and witch hunts.
The usual instance-wide rules also apply.
Chronicle the life and tale of the fediverse (+ matrix)
Largely a sublemmy about capturing drama, from fediverse spanning drama to just lemmy drama.
Includes lore like how a instance got it’s name, how an instance got defederated, how an admin got doxxed, fedihistory etc
(New) This sub’s intentions is to an archive/newspaper, as in preferably don’t get into fights with each other or the ppl featured in the drama
Isn’t this par for the course for lemmy.world?
Was this some dumbass saying dogs and cats can be fine with a vegan diet? Because that is 100% Grade A bullshit and the admin’s actions were justified.
Have you looked at the research. Idk about cats, but research suggests for dogs it is okay. Dogs aren’t wolves anymore.
Dogs can survive and thrive on a vegan diet, as long as it’s fairly carefully tailored; dogs are not obligate carnivores, and the essential amino acids that they can’t make themselves are available from non-animal sources.
Cats are obligate carnivores; the only natural source for at least one essential amino acid they need is meat. (I’m not sure which amino acid(s) it is, off the top of my head. Taurine? Lysine? Something else?) In theory you could heavily supplement a cat that was on a vegan diet and not kill it, but given that bioavailability of supplements isn’t the same as that of whole foods, I wouldn’t bet a life on it.
deleted by creator
That’s not an ad hominem, just a regular insult.
deleted by creator
If you need a vegan pet get a bunny, lol.
Not feeding dogs and cats with meat-based food is cruel af.
Seeing vegans and the Lemmy.World admin team fighting… yes, let the hate flow through you and destroy each other.
deleted by creator
Then feed them a proper diet. If you love animals, treat them well and don’t fight for your right to spread disinformation that harms them
not a vegan but you should be able to have your own space.
Nobody should have a space where they get to spread disinformation that harms pets
yeah because they’re such cruel fucking people, those heartless vegans abusing animals lol…
look man, I get it, you have bones with the veggies and the vegans and THIS IS THE ONE PLACE where you can get some kind of moral high ground on 'em, and you really want to rub it in their faces at every opportunity.
I don’t know who those vegans even are, the vast, vast majority of vegans I know are pet owners who feed their cats and their dogs kibble. None of them are trying to ‘convert’ their pets, and none of them look at pet ownership as ‘the enslavement of an animal for the purposes of ownership’.
all y’all need to fucking calm yoselfs. jfc, get a grip.
They are literally spreading disinformation. Vegan cat food isn’t good for cats. They are abusing their cats if they feed them that. Tf is your point?
you are literally hyperventilating over this.
It’s kind of a huge deal if the mods of a community are working to promote disinformation that harms cats and censoring any dissenting opinion about it. I’d rather cats not be malnourished bc of a bunch of pissy vegans who want to force their ideology onto an animal that can’t handle it
Honestly, the admin that did this is based. The vegans on Lemmy give me the same vibes as the grifters that pedal homeopathy.
I think I trust Kitten Lady over a bunch of randos on the Threadiverse. Video
gerbils, mice and bunbuns are herbivores, and need homes too. They‘d make great vegan buddies
I watched your video, and she makes a number of logical errors. She correctly identifies that cats need diets that are nutritionally complete, but then jumps to the conclusion that cats need to eat meat. They don’t. They need to consume the nutrients that have traditionally been found in meat. She overlooks that vegan cat foods are specifically designed to contain all these nutrients, thus making them nutritionally complete.
While I generally agree that vegans shouldn’t adopt cats if possible, Kitten Lady seems to be talking out of her ass.
deleted by creator
Okay, I’ll start by not trusting you.
deleted by creator
What’s your opinion about cats killing birds?
What’s your opinion about cat holders that let their cats roam outside?
What’s your opinion on cat holders that keep their cat inside all day?
Not once have you linked to any of those studies you keep referring to.
For what it worth, the mods at vegan community are also deleting comment disagreeing with their point of view. It’s one thing to accuse rooki for power abuse, which i tend to agree as admin should be impartial to their ruling and not demote/remove based on emotion, but it’s ironic that the mod also did the exact same thing they accuse rooki for. Lesson here is, don’t fucking abuse power based on your emotion and then whine about it after losing that privilege. It’s a very highschool drama this one is.
Every vegan community I’ve ever visited has been such a strong echo chamber that they give atheists a run for their money.
They will not tolerate discussion that is not in full agreement.
Just ignore the vegans like you ignore a random person on the street yelling about some nonsense.
deleted by creator
Experiment on yourself all you want, but not your companion who depends on you. This is not a great subject to gather support from a larger audience with.
That being said, controversial subjects need to be discussed, not deleted. Nobody was intentionally trying to harm animals here. These actions don’t feel right
deleted by creator
That’s not a strawman. You should review your knowledge of informal logical fallacies and be certain of their application before leveling accusations of them at people, even if you really disagree with them.
I don’t care what community we’re talking about, we’re discussing powermod/poweradmin here so i do care about the action of the mod and if you think just because you’re vegan you get to be exempted by common sense, then you’re mistaken. People are talking about food for pets, not for human consumption, it’s still a hot topic that you yourself said it’s less studied and can’t even be sure if it’s safe to do so, discussion amongst the community are needed, not swept under the rug. You guys are getting criticised here not because of being vegan, but because of the action you guys take, stop using veganism as your shield and looking like a bunch of imbecile.
People said veganism isn’t a religion but this looks more and more like one.
Well, I don’t feel strongly either way for the specific issue at hand but this is drama llama content for sure!
The cool part of the Fediverse, if this is an issue that fellow vegans can’t see eye to eye on, then we could have two communities, possibly on two instances. One which believes animal welfare means that domesticated animals shouldn’t participate in killing other animals, viewing it as unecessary and cruel, and the other community that doesn’t and only considers human nutrition choices, with the view that forcing change in domesticated animals’ diets as unnatural and cruel.
Like it or not, each server’s admins determine the shape of discussion and can make the final decisions on some items of discourse in situations like this, call it carnist, tankie, whatever pejorative of choosing. The recourse is to move elsewhere.
lmao at all the carnists in this thread scrambling to justify animal abuse so they can still feel like a good person
Not feeding cats and dogs meat is animal abuse.
Eating cows is not.
Thanks for listening to my TED talk.
Well I don’t deny my dogs meat, so I’m not sure what you’re on about. Every week, I adopt a dog from the local shelter, kill it, butcher it, put it in the freezer, and serve my dogs their daily food from that. I’m not denying animals food at all. So what the hell is your problem with that?
Sorry for all the hate your getting because some people’s brains are programmed to think vegan=bad. Sounds like a major overstep by admins.
They’re not being downvoted for their veganism, they’re being downvoted for their defence of animal abuse.
(Same reason the lemmy.world admin seems to have taken these actions; as much as I despise lemmy.world admins and their attempts to bring everything bad from reddit to lemmy, in this particular case they seem to have been in the right, if maybe excessively hamfisted as they tend to be).
I think @[email protected] owes an explanation and apology. It’s fine to be invested in animal welfare, but if one learns that one is factually incorrect, then admitting it openly is the mature and responsible thing to do.
edit: Edited my response in the original post.
We live in a day where a healthy diet can be fully synthesized, even for a human. I think the claim that a cat cannot flourish under one requires strict scrutiny and proper links to scientific articles demonstrating this finding.
edit: Because we do have evidence indicating such a diet is not harmful, so evidence that disputes this would need to exist.
https://www.mdpi.com/2306-7381/10/1/52
edit2: Another thing that occured to me that may help shed light on this: Humans have to eat food in order to survive, yes?
No, actually. We can hook you up to an IV and keep you alive for as long as we need by pumping the necessary nutrients directly into your bloodstream, bypassing your digestive tract altogether. We call this intravenous feeding.
I had to be on IV feeding for a month last year and it felt like I was starving because I wasn’t getting any calories. I lost 20 kg in 2 weeks, despite the fact I was confined to a bed 24 hours.
What were you in for? Sounds to me like someone was pinching pennies on you, since there’s nothing stopping them from including the sugars and aminos your body needs.
Or maybe they thought you were overweight or something, but I’d think that’d be malpractice.
Gallstones turned into sepsis and pancreatitis
Yikes, didn’t know gallstones could do that. Glad you made it, sepsis is life threatening.
I went to the ER and the doctor said “You are dying,” which I took as a bad sign.
My cousin is a vet. She’s a vegan. Her cat is not nor would she ever make her cat a vegan. It just isn’t good for cats.
deleted by creator
I am not convinced that depending on self-reporting of veterinary outcomes from people who are feeding their cat a vegan diet is a reliable way to structure the study
In fact, I would say that purely as a personal and anecdotal conclusion, I believe that the self reporting of an indistinguishable outcome from this study probably means that these vegan diets are harming the cats significantly, if the hidden factor of vegan-diet-feeding guardians underreporting bad outcomes were to be included.
https://theconversation.com/is-it-really-safe-to-feed-your-cat-a-vegan-diet-213356
Most of the health benefits reported for this group also did not reach statistical significance, which may be the result of simply not having enough animals in the study.
The authors reported a tendency towards positive effects of vegan diets. This means there was a general trend (which was sometimes strong), but doesn’t necessarily mean there is a very predictable relationship.
As a survey study, it’s not possible to confirm exactly what the cats were eating. Many of them went outside and may have hunted down meaty treats even while on a vegan diet. Some owners also fed their cats treats and essential nutrient supplements, so any beneficial effects (or a lack of harmful effects) may not be due to diet alone.
Another missing piece of information is how long the cats were kept on the diet. We might assume one year – but this isn’t specifically stated. This is important information since deficiency diseases can take time to develop.
Finally, any study assessing animal health will have inherent limitations if it’s designed as a survey. Pet owners usually aren’t medically trained and their “opinions” can be subjective and therefore biased.
Owners who had removed or reduced meat in their own diet were over-represented in the study. These people may already anticipate vegan diets are better for health, and this thinking could influence their responses.
It’s also worth noting the study was funded by ProVeg International – a food awareness organisation that promotes plant-based products. While this might not have impacted the validity of data, it could have influenced the stance taken when reporting on the results.
Figure 4 shows the age distribution of tested cats. Most vegan cats have been between 1-10 years while there were many meat fed cats up to 24 years old with a general distribution towards the older ages, while vegan cats drop off sharply after 10 years.
Also there were only 127 vegan cats out of the 1378 overall cats tested. That’s not a significant data set to draw definite conclusions from, especially considering how many old meat cats they lumped into the same pot as young vegan cats. At no point in the study do they clean up for age.
I don’t trust this study at all. That’s what you base the health and wellbeing of animals on?
deleted by creator
It’s so funny that they’re the largest instance. Only see incredible decisions coming out of there.
I actually agree in general, but this is like the one time in recent memory I have felt like whole heartedly cheering on the Lemmy.world administration team
If some other instance wants to scoop up the animal abuse demographic now that they are ejected from .world, I think we will all survive
Ah yes, its the people that are against harming animals that are the real animal abusers.
Feeding an animal a nutrionally complete diet: abuse
killing animals: not abuse
Feeding an obligatory carnivore plants = abuse. End of story.
Even if that was true, you’re still killing other animals which is obviously more harmful/abusive to them than not giving them their favorite food instead of the same nutrients in a different package.
Yes, one animal dies to feed a different one. That’s how it has always been. Starving a pet because you don’t like the facts of life makes you a bad pet owner, nothing more. No moral highground, just abuse.
It’s not abuse to feed an animal a nutritionally complete diet. There is no magical nutrient that exists in animals that cannot be artificially synthesized. Just because you don’t care about animal suffering doesn’t make it necessary or justified.
I care about animal suffering infinitely more than someone who starves their cat for their beliefs.
deleted by creator
A philosophy that should not be forced on another animal against their nature.
There’s some hypocrisy here!
deleted by creator
You could and would probably have a point.
But it doesn’t make it ok for you just because someone else did before.
Your hypocrisy is the point here.
deleted by creator
You’re not even wrong.
You really have no idea what any of the fallacies you throw out there really are do you xD
Meatsplained? Sucks you guys lost your community, but that is one of the dumbest words I’ve ever had the privilege of reading.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
That’s exactly what a carnist blood-mouth would say! /s
(I am a vegan, but the insults that I have seen from the vegan communities here are all hilarious)
I don’t really prefer car so i’m more of a commutenist
That would be a good band name, “Blood-Mouth and the Carnists” opening for “The Meatsplainers”!
Seriously. I stopped reading after “meatsplained” and now am rooting for the admin.
To me this is a case where a mod didn’t know what an admin is and found out the hard way.
I cracked up when I read it.
Vegans and anti vegans seem to spend a lot of time on names
I’m just surprised how many people think veganism and ‘owning’ a pet are reproachable. Imho they are not
On top of that if you do ‘own’ an animal, why do you let your own philosophy trump their joy and wellbeing.
Afaik cats and dogs couldn’t be happier with a meaty treat. Why disallow that?
Pets are not vegan in the first place but only 5% of vegans will admit that.
I literally banned the lemmy world instance admin for saying otherwise, but they reversed it. “Owning” another animal is not vegan and is speciesist. I’ve only seen carnists go on about “vegan pet ownership”.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
deleted by creator